DEAD MEANS DEAD!

[SpiritualMadMan]

I am not surprised you agree with Fox but because he and you know some denominations believe the souls will be running around Heaven don't make it so. Where is your Scripture? Just because you and Fox believe it is not enough.

And, where is your scripture proving that people are non-aware?

Is there more besides Lazarus not resting?

Yes, I need help, and His name is Jesus...

But you conveniently forget I also said:

And, there is no reason to believe that this was other than a one time occurance...

Besides, maybe Lazarus was out of earshot. Afterall a place big enough for all the righteous dead from Genesis to Jesus would have to be pretty big...

Also, the souls under the altar are obviously conscious and aware in heaven before your timing for the return of Christ with them with Him...

That would seem to support at least the idea that they weren't soul sleeping at the time...

Especially since the Greek
G373
ἀναπαύω
anapauō
an-ap-ow'-o
From G303 and G3973; (reflexively) to repose (literally or figuratively (be exempt), remain); by implication to refresh: - take ease, refresh, (give, take) rest.

This is similar to the military term "Stand at Ease", not go back to sleep and be unaware...


The writer of Hebrews also seems to imply that the Righteous Dead spoken of in Hebrews 11 (therefore) are a "Cloud of Witnesses"...

Hebrews 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.

To be a Witness you have to be "Awake" and "Aware"...

SMM

BTW: I do believe that those who are alive until the Lord's Coming will see the Beginning of Sorrows, the 'Braxton-Hicks' of the earth being in labor pains, *before* the Actual Seven Year Tribulation Begins.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />SMM;
1 Thessolonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

This establishes that they are with God already. Otherwise they could not be brought with Him

SMM; In the previous post you even posted they were asleep and with God and now you say something different, which is it?

</font>[/QUOTE]You deliberately misrepresent what I wrote...

You know it...

It is beneath you...

SMM

 

[Brother Bob]

"10": And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

"11": And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

These souls were at rest for God told them to rest on a little while longer but it was time to get their white robes. Want to know where and when the robes were given and by who? Well when Jesus died on the Cross there was a fountain opened for sin and uncleanness and half flowed to the hinder sea and half to the former sea and all that had died befor Jesus died still lacked the white robe for the robes came from the blood of the Lamb and God had made Israel a promise that the Messiah would come. Now they were under the Altar without their white robes but when Jesus died they were disturbed and were given their white robes and told to rest on a little while longer (they were not told to start running about Heaven, but rest!!) Now to prove where the robes come from;

Revelation, chapter 7
"9": After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

"10": And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

"11": And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

"12": Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

"13": And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

"14": And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[Brother Bob]

SMM;

I copied and pasted exactly what you said to a T.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

It's not what you copied it's the intentional misrepresentation of what I said that is beneath you...

You know very well that I have always quoted that to be asleep in Christ is being Awake, Aware, and Present with the Lord...

Also, you conveniently read into "Rest" your concept of "Rest" not the Greek concept of rest as the Greek word reveals...

It means to "Stand at Ease" or "Standby"... Not to become unaware again...

I mean, look at the illogic of what you're saying...

They were awake without a command to wake up...

Then, if I read you right, they are told to go to sleep for a little while?

If they are already awake why put them (back) to sleep?

If they were supposed to be asleep, who woke them up?

SMM

 

[Brother Bob]

No misrepresentation at all. It exactly what you said and meant but you were proving that the souls were in Heaven not realizing you were proving also that they were asleep. You want it both ways and that is not going to happen. You either have to let the Scripture go or accept it for what it is.

He told them to rest on a little while longer. Not run around Heaven, not rejoice, not sing just rest and Greek may say something else but I have found by getting the Greek word there are many definitions for each word so I mostly look to the Scholars who first interpted and were closer to the time than some 2000 years later.

 

[rooster25]

how about when steven said Lord Jesus receive my spirit and he fell asleep....he had just saw heaven and was on his way

 

[Brother Bob]

rooster25; Do you fight chickens? And are you a young rooster or and old one?

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Let's set the record straight with a quote in context:

SpiritualMadMan posted May 25, 2006 08:24 AM
1 Thessolonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

This establishes that they are with God already. Otherwise they could not be brought with Him

1 Thessolonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Prevent here is more correctly rendered preceed or go before them... Hard to do if we who are alive are starting on earth to meet with those who are already with God ...

1 Thessolonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Rise First. Literally means to stand up... Think of it this way... They have been bowing and worshipping in Heaven since they fell 'asleep'... The command goes forth to return and take dominion over the earth again... So, they Stand Up First...

It could also mean to stand up and be counted...

In either case you can't be 'dead away out of it' (Soul Sleeping) if you've been bowing and worshipping...

I reiterate. You grossly intentionally misrepresent who I am and Who I stand for.

As for your scholars...

Who are they?

Barnes:
The souls of them that were slain - That had been put to death by persecution. This is one of the incidental proofs in the Bible that the soul does not cease to exist at death, and also that it does not cease to be conscious, or does not sleep until the resurrection. These souls of the martyrs are represented as still in existence; as remembering what had occurred on the earth; as interested in what was now taking place; as engaged in prayer; and as manifesting earnest desires for the divine interposition to avenge the wrongs which they had suffered.

Gill:
"Souls", being immaterial and incorporeal, are invisible to the bodily eye; these therefore were either clothed with corporeal forms, as angels sometimes are, or rather John saw them in a visionary way, as he saw the angels: and these were the souls of such as "were slain"; their bodies were dead, but their souls were alive; which shows the immortality of souls, and that they die not with their bodies, and that they live after them in a separate state: נשמתין דקטולי, "the souls of them that are slain", is a phrase used by Jewish writers

Poole:
The souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held; from whence we may not conclude, that the souls of men and women when they die do sleep, as some dreamers have thought. These are said to be the souls of them that were slain

SMM

 

[Mary Diana Lynn Harper]

OK Ok Ok Lets take a breather, God has given each and every one His portion of Faith. What God gives one man to understand another may be given something else to understand. Everyone needs to take a breather, get on your knees and pray to God to answer you and give you the portion of this debate so we can all put this into prespective. Let each one add something to this and pray that God brings all understanding to us. We each need to listen to the others understanding without bringing religion into the debate. We all fall short of His Glory and it is through the reading and learning and studing the Word that we find our God and what He wants us to understand. Like I said before, We each have belief given by God for eachs' understanding. Let God sort out this debate and pray for understanding.

 

[Eric B]

Problem is Claudia...

We've done that...

Shown you that...

Lazarus was a real person...

He died and was raised just as in the Story Jesus told.

Given this context, of a real Lazarus who died and was raised, it is reasonable to assume that there was also a Rich Man and that Jesus was in fact giving a glimpse beyond the veil as to how things were before He ascended...

I'm wondering about this now. I always thought the Lazarus and the Rich Man story was basically a recap of Lazarus dying, but in putting together my Harmony of the Gospels, it appeared that the story was told before the event of the actual man Lazarus dying and being risen by Christ. The "story" is from Luke, and the event is from John. From John, it appears to be right before the Jews begin plotting His death, and the triumphal entry into Jerusalem; events towards the end of Jesus ministry, and well after Luke's account of the Rich Man story. (one is in ch.16, and the other would be around ch.19).
I tried to put the story afterwards, but it just woundn't fit. I'll have to check the other harmonies, to see what they did. I could be wrong (like if John's account was totally out of order or something like that. Some have suggested some of the Gospels did not follow an exact timeline).

So the "Lazarus" in the story may have had nothing to do with the Lazarus whom Christ rose from the dead. They just had the same name, but then many different people in the Bible shared names. The fact thet they are in two different Goospels also hints that it may not have been intended to mean the same person.
Also, looking at the two accounts, they don't even exactly correspond. Lazarus whom Christ and Mary and Martha knew, of their town Bethany was probably a Jew, while Lazarus in Luke's story represented Gentiles (while the rich man represented Jews). That's the whole point of him entering "Abraham's bosom" while the rich man who was physically of Abraham was cast out. (Paralleling the message of several of Christ's parables). Abraham's bosom represented kinship, not some section of Hades. (which even if so, would mean it was figurative). Also notice "The have Moses and the prophets, if they don't believe him, they won't be convinced even if someone rose from the dead", picturing His own death and resurrection. The Lazarus in the story was never said to be raised again to this life, but rather presumedly remained where he was!
And who ever said that the Lazarus who was raised was a 'beggar'"? It seemed he was just an average, everyday person whom they knew.

 

[Brother Bob]

I never did say it as the Lazarus that Jesus raised from the dead and Abraham's bossom is a type and figure of God and not Abraham himself. Abraham was a Father and God is the Holy Father.

Smm; have you changed your mind now. You sure are doing some squirming trying to get around that one.

SpiritualMadMan posted May 25, 2006 08:24 AM
1 Thessolonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

This establishes that they are with God already. Otherwise they could not be brought with Him

Where did you get the bowing and worshiping in Heaven from?

It could also mean to stand up and be counted...

Lord knows the hairs on our head and don't know how many is in Heaven?

[ May 26, 2006, 12:26 AM: Message edited by: Brother Bob ]

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

You continue to ignore absolute proof of my true intent and are maliciously maligning me as a Soul Sleep Heretic. Which I categorically deny.

And, you haven't provided a list of your
scholars...

I have one to add:
Wayne Grudem professor of Biblical and Systematic Theolgy at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School.

Systematic Theology - An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine
In Chapter 41 Section C subpart 2 para b

The Bible does not teach the doctrine of "Soul Sleep": The fact that souls of believers go immediately into God's Presence also means that the doctrine soul sleep is incorrect...

This is developed over two full pages of small print...

Again, you've thrown a probable unsupportable statement out that the scholars who forst interpreted the Greek hold your definition for the word 'Rest'...

I have FIVE scholars who differ with you...

Not to mention that my own independent studies have yielded the same conclusion...

The Doctrine of "Soul Sleep" is contrary to Sound Biblical exegesis and is not generally accepted by the vast majority of True Christian Denominations and is therefore concluded to be Heresy.

SMM

BTW: Sub-note to Eric... The scholars, I've read, that mention the Lazarus Parable all connect it to the Literal Lazarus and/or an actual factual event based story...

 

[Brother Bob]

SMM;

Bible

Apostle Paul

Jesus

Do you base your belief on what those scholars have to say about any matter? You say the Bible does not teach the "soul sleep" but yet you used it with Claudia to prove that souls were in Heaven. Conventient don't you think? Also you say your scholars different with the Scripture saying "asleep in Jesus", yet they have no Scripture to support their belief the souls even know what is taken place here on earth.

Question; Do you disagree with any scholars and if so how do you decide which ones to agree with?

Eric;
Those scholars who say it is the same Lazarus have no way whatsoever of knowing for there is no Scripture basis for that belief. It is supposition. I will be honest, I don't know if it is or not for the Bible does not teach me so, and I am not much on Scholars and I am like Apostle Paul, I don't learn it of man but I go to God for wisdom.

[ May 26, 2006, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: Brother Bob ]

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

I always agree with scholars who agree with me.

I definately don't take your word for the meaning of things any more than the Bereans took Paul's Word at face value...

And, you sir, are no Paul...

You are avoiding the issue...

Can't you name a scholar and give a reference?

You continue to malign me by twisting my words even though I have gone to great lengths to correct you...

In this regard you are guilty of slander and libel...

I do not understand how someone who claims to be a "Christian" can go to such lengths to malign a Believer...

Perhaps you really believe that I made the statements you are accusing me off?

In which case you are as decieved in that regard as you are about "Soul Sleep" being a valid Christian Doctrine...

BTW: Here's a scripture for you to gag on...

Psalms 58:10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

Proverbs 11:10 When it goeth well with the righteous, the city rejoiceth: and when the wicked perish, there is shouting.

But, I guess Rejoicing and Shouting aren't considered a restful state to you...

I may be Physically exhausted after shouting and rejoicing. But, my Soul and Spirit are rested and refreshed...

SMM

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Found this Link 'purporting' to refute "Soul Sleep"...

http://www.velocity.net/~edju/web/SoulSleep1.htm

"Nice"

SMM

 

[Brother Bob]

You or I are not a Abraham, Isaac, Jacob or Moses and I do not claim to be anything near Apostle Paul, neither in no way did I say I was, just that I studied his writings and not some interptitation of someone I don't even know. I have met some pretty "wild" beliefs on BB and afraid I might be quoting one of them so I use the Bible and so should you. Paul is dead now and at rest, but haven't heard from him since he died, hmmmmm strange don't you think.
How could I possible be twisting your words when I copy and paste. You talked with a double mind and now you are trying to talk yourself out of it. I will always know what you said to Claudia trying to use a Scripture to put her down and trying to get rid of it to put me down. Won't work, sorry.

Your URL led me to find out who the writer was and this is what I found just to begin with and don't even scratch the surface. It also proves my point on research scholars. Do what the Lord said do and go to Him, not man. Your man is;

Ed Tarkowski
http://www.seekgod.ca/etdiscuss.htm

Essentially, Ed gave a New Age witch the last word and did not allow me to "expose the lie, present the truth and protect the innocent" using the scripture for instruction, reproof and correction; according to the stated purpose of the forum.


It was obvious that Ed had ties to the messianic/occultic movement

The following is a testimony from someone who had been on Ed Tarkowski’s Discussion list. Having formerly been on that same list, this writer can validate what is described. Others who have left echo these same observations. I left after publicly rebuking John Yonge, whose false and ungodly teachings and tone were upheld by Ed. Ed in fact, linked to and promoted him. Further, Ed tried to teach a form of dualism, in a presentation to children on the Family/kingdom of Satan and the Family/kingdom of God, for which I challenged him on. Dualism is actually hinging on dominionist teachings. I challenged him on other teachings as well.

It should be noted that many forums and discussion groups are being used to marginalize Christians. Tolerance is redefined as playing ball with political correctness and adherence to New Age thinking. Most non-Christians don't realize the level to which they are being indoctrinated and used. Fundamentalist Christians are very carefully targeted and comments withheld, censored or vitriol used against them, including their elimination from forums. Often discussions are discontinued if Truth is being presented as a defense against false thinking. Many forums are labeled under the banner of 'Christian' but in reality are a melting pot of heresy, and can be proven so by testing what is promoted as truth to the Word of God.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Well,

You can not defeat the argument so you go after the man...

Interesting diversionary tactic...

The site you call out is 'owned' by Vicky Dillen and my short Google Tour of Facts reveals she's no saint either...

http://www.intotruth.org/sum_heb-old.html
Vicky Dillen and her little group of agitators on the Net have inexplicably set themselves against ministries such as:

Moriel Ministries (Jacob Prasch)
Ariel Ministries (Arnold Fruchtenbaum)
Christian Conscience (Sarah Leslie)
Discernment (Jewel Van Der Merwe)
DITC (Sandy Simpson)
Antipas (Steve Shearer)
Bill and Jackie Alnor (Sentinel)
Mike Oppenheimer (Let Us Reason)
Ed Tarkowski
Rev. Philip Foster, St. Matthew's Church, Cambridge
Dave Hunt
Al Dager (Media Spotlight)
Berit Kjos
Dave Wilkerson

What is the one thing that links all these ministries and the others that are now being attacked and denounced? Think.... yes, these ministries have been in the forefront of exposing the False Revival, the New World Order, the Latter-Rain teachings, the New-Age and things like Ecumenism that threaten our lives as believers!

Many of them [including myself] have also done work exposing the heretical teachings of the Hebraic Roots Movements. Despite this, we are branded as conspirators and deceivers!

Actually, except for the hertical view of "Soul Sleep" I would think that the things Ed is exposing would be on your list of things to expose, too...

But, apparently, not...

For if someone doesn't accept your word as it is presented... Then they are your enemies...

That I think is a very sad commentary for a person who has the credentials your profile claims...

BTW: I happen to be an Assemblies of God Pentecostal and a Lover of Israel...

So, as long as we're enemies... Let's get it on!

SMM

 

[rooster25]

gamecock fan.....32

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Hey Rooster...

You're not trying to defuse anything by hijacking the thread are you?

Where in SC are you?

I commute Williston-Columbia for work...