Dean Burgon Quote

[TCassidy]

Just telling it like it is.

He that has ears, let him hear.

Rob

You should listen to him. You will never convince him if he does not listen. I am sure you are familiar with the famous passage from Plato's Republic:

327

Yesterday I went down to the Piraeus with Glaucon, son of Ariston, to offer up my prayers to the goddess; also to see how they would celebrate the festival, which was a new thing. I was delighted with the procession the inhabitants put on; but the Thracians’ was just as beautiful, maybe more so. When we had finished our prayers and watched the spectacle, we headed back towards the city. Just then Polemarchus, son of Cephalus, happened to catch sight of us from a distance as we were starting home and told his servant to run ahead and tell us to wait. The servant grabbed me from behind by the cloak, and said, ‘Polemarchus says to wait.’

I turned around and asked him where his master was.

There he is, coming after you, so wait, said the boy.

Of course we will, said Glaucon; and in a few minutes Polemarchus caught up. With him were Adeimantus, Glaucon's brother, Niceratus the son of Nicias, and several others who had been at the procession.

Polemarchus said to me: Socrates, I see you and our friend here are already headed back to the city.

You’ve guessed right, I said.

But don’t you see how many of us there are, he replied?

Of course.

Either you must overpower all of us, or you will have to stay where you are.

Isn’t there another way, I said; namely, that we could persuade you to let us go?

But can you persuade us if we won’t listen? he said.

Certainly not, replied Glaucon.

Then we aren’t going to listen; you can count on it.

 

[Rippon]

I asked several pastors about this, and they gave me some very good books on how the various Bible versions came to be. It was very difficult study, many of these books were hundreds of years old and difficult to read.

Many of these books "were hundreds of years old and difficult to read",hmm. The KJV fits that description.

But I became convinced that the KJB was that preserved version in English. I had always been leaning that way from the beginning, it may be unscriptural, but I sensed it was the correct version, but these books convinced me it was the true word of God in our language.

It still is not clear from your posts why there must be a singular Bible translation in every language. So in your view the Lord can't manage to have several translations in the very same language like he did from say 1526-1611 or so?

 

[Rippon]

You are doing well, you started with the presupposition that God always tells the truth. That is faith. :thumbs:

But you have to watch, when you get engaged with men, they will continually try to cause you to doubt. They will use what may appear to be logical and scholarly arguments to persuade you.

I don't care if people believe me a fool, or discount me because I am not a scholar. I believe what God says, and God cannot lie.

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

The scriptures often speak of the test of our faith. This is the test.

The test of faith has absolutely nothing to do with the man-made philosophy of KJVOism.

 

[Mexdeaf]

...........

 

[annsni]

I wish someone cared about my struggles as a pastor. And I say that truthfully.:tonofbricks:

I do! I care about so many of you guys on here.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I care about the struggles of a pastor. In fact, I have a temendous amount of pity in my heart for them. hahah! Listen brothers, God called you to pastor a church, He appointed you, don't whine about it. And for me who is not appointed to that work (yet) I have every right to expect much of you. haha!

My comments about pastoral help was more of a challenge than a complaint. But I did find a man who addressed this subject pastorally, and I think it would be of great use to many pastors here.

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/Preaching_from_the_Footnotes.PDF

And even if the Lord doesn't appoint me as a shepherd of His house, He has appointed me as shepherd and govenor of my own. And brethren, there is to now be seven sheep the Lord has given me (I have six, and we learned a week ago we have a seventh on the way!).

Btw, I raised this subject among my own elders. And they are good men of God who exhorted me and gave me some things to read. Praise the Lord, that is pastoral. But I know that in discussion boards you expect debate and someone looking for a fight. Reckon in my case that I am normally not. I have in the past, but I have given that up as a bad habit.

God bless

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Just telling it like it is.

He that has ears, let him hear.

Rob

Since the quoting of Jesus' words here refers to what He says, I will limit my obedience to Him.

In the meantime, I'll get back to the study-work you think I am not doing. :type::tongue3:

 

[Mexdeaf]

I care about the struggles of a pastor. In fact, I have a temendous amount of pity in my heart for them. hahah! Listen brothers, God called you to pastor a church, He appointed you, don't whine about it. And for me who is not appointed to that work (yet) I have every right to expect much of you. haha!

I can't wait until you get the experience of being a pastor and walk a while in "our" shoes.

I had a bad day yesterday. Forgive me for being a frail man.

 

[annsni]

And even if the Lord doesn't appoint me as a shepherd of His house, He has appointed me as shepherd and govenor of my own. And brethren, there is to now be seven sheep the Lord has given me (I have six, and we learned a week ago we have a seventh on the way!).

Congratulations on your newest blessing! I pray that your wife has a healthy and safe 9 months and that next spring, you have a wonderfully healthy new little one in your arms.

 

[RAdam]

God's people, being moved by God's Spirit, using God given logical abilities, formulated the rules according to the observable evidences of God's creation.Yes, God is using His surrendered people to preserve His word. God has always used His people, at least those who are willing to "stand in the gap." I invite you to yield to His will and stand in the gap with us to be used by Him to preserve His word.

So it was man, and not God, who established the rules. Let me ask you this: why don't I see one single instruction on how to carry out this important work in scripture? I mean, if you are correct, this has to be one of the most important duties of a child of God. The bible is, after all, that which tells us about Jesus Christ and how to worship Him. It tells us how to baptize, it tells us how to hold communion, it tells us how to run the church. Yet it says nothing of this textual criticism. God, who told us how to do everything else important, apparently left the details of this important work for man to figure out.

 

[RAdam]

It is understood that if we guard His word, we will observe and remove errors. If we refuse to guard His word we will allow errors to remain.

No sir. You said God commanded us in His word to remove the errors that creep in by copying it. I sincerely would like to know which scripture tells me this. Obviously this would be extremely important and something I'd need to know. Give me one scripture that instructs me that I am to remove error from God's word.

While you are hunting for that I'll give you one scripture to chew on:

2 Timothy 2:15 - "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

Preachers have been pointing this out for years and years, and they are right: it didn't say rightly dividing truth from error. It says rightly dividing the word of truth. Apparently there are no errors in God's word. Of course, this is supported by other scriptures. For instance, Jesus said unto the Father in John 17, "thy word is truth." Proverbs 30 says, "every word of God is pure." Jesus said in Matthew 4:4 that man is to live by "every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." NT writers based arguments sometimes on a single word. I don't see a single shred of evidence that would lead me to believe that God's word has any errors in it. In fact, I see abundant evidence that suggests the contrary, that God's word is pure and free from errors.

I'm still interested to see this bible verse that tells me that I am to remove errors from God's word.

 

[RAdam]

Just telling it like it is.

He that has ears, let him hear.

Rob

What arrogance! I've got one for you:

It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I can't wait until you get the experience of being a pastor and walk a while in "our" shoes.

I had a bad day yesterday. Forgive me for being a frail man.

I walked in them for a short period of time. I have pastored a church. And seriously brother, I am pastoring my family. Please accept my apology for not be sensitive toward you brother.

I look at the work of a pastor/elder as that of a soldier. When I hear a pastor complaining of his work my tendency is to tell him to suck it up soldier! But that comes from my old soldiering days. (US Army, 91B).

Again, sorry for being insensitive.

 

[TCassidy]

So it was man, and not God, who established the rules. Let me ask you this: why don't I see one single instruction on how to carry out this important work in scripture? I mean, if you are correct, this has to be one of the most important duties of a child of God. The bible is, after all, that which tells us about Jesus Christ and how to worship Him. It tells us how to baptize, it tells us how to hold communion, it tells us how to run the church. Yet it says nothing of this textual criticism. God, who told us how to do everything else important, apparently left the details of this important work for man to figure out.

It is unfortunate that you not only ignore God's command to guard His word, but you also deny His ability to lead His people. He made it clear we are to guard His word. Just as with most things He left the mechanics and details up to us. He gave us sound minds and the ability to engage in logical thought processes, then gave us His command.

If you refuse to use the logical abilities He gave you, or you refuse to use the sound mind He, presumably, gave you, there is nothing I can do. If you will not listen to God you certainly will not listen to me.

 

[TCassidy]

No sir. You said God commanded us in His word to remove the errors that creep in by copying it. I sincerely would like to know which scripture tells me this. Obviously this would be extremely important and something I'd need to know. Give me one scripture that instructs me that I am to remove error from God's word.

While you are hunting for that I'll give you one scripture to chew on:

2 Timothy 2:15 - "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

Preachers have been pointing this out for years and years, and they are right: it didn't say rightly dividing truth from error. It says rightly dividing the word of truth. Apparently there are no errors in God's word. Of course, this is supported by other scriptures. For instance, Jesus said unto the Father in John 17, "thy word is truth." Proverbs 30 says, "every word of God is pure." Jesus said in Matthew 4:4 that man is to live by "every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." NT writers based arguments sometimes on a single word. I don't see a single shred of evidence that would lead me to believe that God's word has any errors in it. In fact, I see abundant evidence that suggests the contrary, that God's word is pure and free from errors.

I'm still interested to see this bible verse that tells me that I am to remove errors from God's word.

How can you rightly divide truth if you are not willing to root out error?

 

[RAdam]

Point me to one single scripture that tells me that there is error in the bible. I keep asking for this and have yet to see one.

Also, I would like a scripture that tells me I am to guard God's word against being corrupted. Now, I'm not talking about defending God's word against those that would misuse it. You are telling me that I am charged with keeping God's written word from being corrupted by searching out errors and removing them. Where does God command me to do this?

Surely, if you are correct, it will be stated clearly in the word of God. And if I am neglecting such important commands, I need correction. Please, point me to these important scriptures.

 

[RAdam]

While you are searching for the scriptures that command me to pull out the errors that are in the scriptures, I am going to point to some verses that seem to teach that there aren't errors in the scriptures. I've quoted one already, but I'll produce some more.

Psalm 12:6 - "The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times."

Proverbs 30:5 - "Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him."

Matthew 4:4 - "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

Apparently the bible is telling me that every single individual word is pure. It is also telling me that every single individual word is important because I am to live by them. Also notice that Jesus said it is written, not it was written. In other words, the scriptures in those days accurately stated what was originally written by Moses. Jesus, apparently, didn't believe that error had crept into the word of God.

Then I notice that every single NT writer has the same opinion about the word of God, that it is not only authoritative, but that it is also accurately preserved and free from error. Paul argues from a single word and the tense of a single word. So does Jesus. Jesus asked the Sadducees, "have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." Jesus not only bases His argument on the tense of the word "am" (if it said "was" His whole point collapses), but He also states that the written word they had at their disposal accurately states this. The view He held on the written copies of scripture in that day is also held by every NT writer and apostle. I have yet to find one shred of evidence that the bible has any errors in it that need to be removed. Instead the bible seems to be telling me to view it as accurately preserved in all points and to believe it even down to individual words and their tenses.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

While you are searching for the scriptures that command me to pull out the errors that are in the scriptures, I am going to point to some verses that seem to teach that there aren't errors in the scriptures. I've quoted one already, but I'll produce some more.

Psalm 12:6 - "The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times."

Proverbs 30:5 - "Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him."

Matthew 4:4 - "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

Apparently the bible is telling me that every single individual word is pure. It is also telling me that every single individual word is important because I am to live by them. Also notice that Jesus said it is written, not it was written. In other words, the scriptures in those days accurately stated what was originally written by Moses. Jesus, apparently, didn't believe that error had crept into the word of God.

Then I notice that every single NT writer has the same opinion about the word of God, that it is not only authoritative, but that it is also accurately preserved and free from error. Paul argues from a single word and the tense of a single word. So does Jesus. Jesus asked the Sadducees, "have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." Jesus not only bases His argument on the tense of the word "am" (if it said "was" His whole point collapses), but He also states that the written word they had at their disposal accurately states this. The view He held on the written copies of scripture in that day is also held by every NT writer and apostle. I have yet to find one shred of evidence that the bible has any errors in it that need to be removed. Instead the bible seems to be telling me to view it as accurately preserved in all points and to believe it even down to individual words and their tenses.

That is a sound reply. I am asking this as an honest question. Because what gave rise to my questions was being in a Bible study where we were looking at the Greek, and because one man used the Nesle/Aland and I had the Traditional Text, we found two different Greek words being used which had two different meanings.

Now the meaning was not that significant and had no bearing on any essential Christian doctrine. But it did cause me to question which one of the words was God's?

I knew previously that the difference existed because of the two mss familes being used, one of the Traditional Text and the other the Critical Text. Since there is a rather large difference between the two, which one should be received by the Church as the Word of God?

 

[RAdam]

To answer that question we must consider something:

God promised to preserve His word and told His people that every single word in the bible was important. Really, we must conclude from this that God's people would have such a bible in all ages. Not all of God's people, but at least some. By the way, this is one reason I reject the extreme notion that the KJV represents the final stop in the evolution of God's word, that it is somehow an improvement on what came before. That's nonsense. God has either provided a preserved copy of His bible to His people in all ages, or they haven't been able to study and feast on every word of God.

Now, the problem with the texts commonly called the "critical texts" is that they weren't in use for a long period of time. Some people consider them more reliable because they are physically older. I don't consider this a decisive argument as we cannot ascertain from their age which is more accurate. The critical point to me is their use by Christians in all ages. That is one reason I don't accept the critical texts.

What has historically been accepted by God's people? There is a key question.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

To answer that question we must consider something:

God promised to preserve His word and told His people that every single word in the bible was important. Really, we must conclude from this that God's people would have such a bible in all ages. Not all of God's people, but at least some. By the way, this is one reason I reject the extreme notion that the KJV represents the final stop in the evolution of God's word, that it is somehow an improvement on what came before. That's nonsense. God has either provided a preserved copy of His bible to His people in all ages, or they haven't been able to study and feast on every word of God.

Now, the problem with the texts commonly called the "critical texts" is that they weren't in use for a long period of time. Some people consider them more reliable because they are physically older. I don't consider this a decisive argument as we cannot ascertain from their age which is more accurate. The critical point to me is their use by Christians in all ages. That is one reason I don't accept the critical texts.

What has historically been accepted by God's people? There is a key question.

Well, the answer to your question unless I missed it is that for the Hebrew/Aramic is the Masoretic Text, and for the NT was the Recieved Text, or Traditional Text. Is that correct?