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Dean Burgon Quote

Winman

Active Member
With all due respect, instead of perhaps a negative rhetoric, how about exegeting Psalm 12 for us.

Added:

Nevermind, let Gill do the hard work:

It is true that many scholars say verse 7 applies to the poor and needy and not God's word, but there are many scholars who take the opposite view and present good arguments for it.

In English, when speaking of a woman, assuming her name is Agnes, the feminine pronoun would always be used with the name Agnes when referring to this woman. One would not say, "The balloon belongs to Agnes and he will hold it." The correct statement would be, "The balloon belongs to Agnes and she will hold it." Antecedent and pronoun agree: Agnes is feminine and so is 'she'. However, In English the gender of most nouns is not nearly as substantial as in Greek or Hebrew. We usually refer to a ship as feminine ("She's a great ship, is the USS George Washington!"), but that is by no means a hard and fast concept. In many languages most words are associated with gender, so antecedent-pronoun agreement is usually required. In Biblical Hebrew a word is either masculine or feminine; there is no neuter gender in Hebrew.

There is a rub, however. In many cases the Hebrew writer will use a feminine pronoun with a masculine antecedent (or vice versa) to make the point stronger. David is certainly making a strong case here. He may have added emphasis by using the feminine emrah (words) instead of the masculine emer for the antecedent "words". If this is the case, then David is saying that God will preserve His Words. There are several examples in the Psalms of the mismatch of gender between antecedent and pronoun. Let me quote Dr. Thomas Strouse, of Emmanuel Baptist Theological Seminary:

"Next, [Academic Dean William Combs in an article for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary Journal] argues that the grammar of [Psalm 12] vv. 6-7 is against the word preservation interpretation. Instead, the gender differences between the masculine plural pronominal suffix 'them' and its antecedent feminine plural 'words' forces one to look for another antecedent which is masculine plural (i.e., 'poor' and 'needy' in v. 5). "However two important grammatical points overturn his argument. First, the rule of proximity requires 'words' to be the natural, contextual antecedent for 'them.' Second, it is not uncommon, especially in the Psalter, for feminine plural noun synonyms for the 'words' of the Lord to be the antecedent for masculine plural pronouns/pronominal suffixes, which seem to 'masculinize' the verbal extension of the patriarchal God of the Old Testament. Several examples of this supposed gender difficulty occur in Psm. 119. In verse 111, the feminine plural 'testimonies' is the antecedent for the masculine plural pronoun 'they.' Again, in three passages the feminine plural synonyms for 'words' have masculine plural pronominal suffixes (vv. 129, 152, 167). These examples include Psm. 119:152 ('Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou has founded them for ever')…"

Dr. Strouse shows several incidences in the Psalms where the feminine synonyms for 'words' become the antecedents for masculine pronouns. The reason for this is not to show God, who is masculine, in a feminine sense. The passages where this happens are listed in the quote. Note that all of his examples are from Psalm 119, which was written exclusively about the Word of God.

Dr. Strouse also discusses another grammatical tenet called the rule of proximity. This rule states that the nearest antecedent is usually the one associated with a particular pronoun. In Psalm 12:6-7 the nearest antecedent to 'them' is the noun, 'words'. It is natural and contextual. One must look too far afield to find another antecedent for 'them' in v. 7. It is not natural or contextual to assign the poor to the pronoun 'them'.

So there is a case for both arguments. Can we find a tie-breaker? Yes, at least two.

The theme of the entire psalm is words. David speaks of the words of men and the words of God more that he speaks of the poor and the needy. The poor and needy accent the theme of words, but the main theme or emphasis is on words. In the first verses, David speaks about the words of men. In fact, he refers to the words of men nine times (speak, lips, speak, lips, tongue, speaketh, said, tongue and lips) in verses 1-4. In verse five he tells of God's promised deliverance of the Godly. Of that promise (which is God's Word), David uses the metaphor of purified silver to show the strength and reliability of that promise, which is the Words of God. There is a parallel here that would be left hanging if the preservation referred to the people and not the words. Let me diagram the structure using introversion and alternation to make the point:

A. Men's words are flattering, deceitful, and proud.
a. Those words are to be cut off.
1. The humble oppressed. God will deliver them.
B. God's Words are pure, tried, and purified seven times.
a. Those words are preserved forever
1. Like purified silver

Here is another way to view it:
Men's words are:
flattering, double hearted, proud
who have said, "we shall prevail"
yet they will be cut off

God's words are:
Pure, tried, purified seven times.
thou shalt keep them, O Lord,
thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever

This makes good sense when poetry is employed instead of prose. The parallel is between the words of men and the Words of God. The first part of the psalm refers to the words of men, words that cannot be relied upon. The second Part refers to God, Words that are eternally true and potent. I believe this parallelism of the poetical structure of the Psalm leaves it in no doubt that David refers to the Words of God when he says they are to be preserved from generation to generation. Amazingly, the NIV shows this parallelism in its interpretation of the poetical structure. Yet, the NIV goes on to say in verse 7, "O LORD, you will keep us safe and protect us from such people forever", following Modern Textual Criticism.

The second tie-breaker is the traditional understanding of this psalm. Has it been traditionally understood to mean that the people are preserved forever or that the words are preserved forever?

Torch Bible Commentaries, written by J.H. Eaton states: "...but we may rather follow the main Hebrew tradition: "Thou O Lord shalt keep them (i.e. watch over the words to fulfill them…)"

Eaton claims that the main Hebrew tradition is that God will preserve His words rather than He will preserve the poor and needy. The following authorities agree that this passage refers to the words and not the poor and needy: Rabbin Ezra (Aben Ezra) of the 11th Century, Michael Ayguan (14th Century), Martin Luther, Coverdale Bible (16th Century), Geneva Bible (16th Century), Henry Ainsworth (17th Century), and John Wesley (18th Century). Matthew Poole (17th Century) says it can be taken either way.

So, there are many scholars who say verse 7 applies to God's word and not the poor and needy.
 
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Mexdeaf

New Member
I am using this forum not to read and make opinions from or draw conclusions. I am really trying to learn. It seems everyone on this board has overlooked my personal struggle and NOT ONE pastor has stepped up to actually come alongside and help. I am glad for this because it is teaching me what I should be and not be to others.

Here is what I have faced:

1. An apparant error in the modern version wtih respect to Mark 1:1-3 and the discovery that it is a msss family issue.

2. Studying the Word of God with the men of my church in the Greek and again discovering two different words in the Greek because of two different sets of manuscripts.


WHAT IS THE WORD OF GOD?

If this doesn't bother some people, it bothers me. If the pastors of this board have no care for this then shame on you.

May God help you in your search for peace with Him on these issues. I'm not smart enough to figure out why He did not strike W&H dead if they were indeed messing with His Word, or why He allowed so many mss that do not all agree to be found. Nor am I smart enough to understand all of the textual issues. I do know there's an answer to your questions but I do not believe it is found in the realm of KJVO.

I will instead choose to be thankful that I have at least four trustworthy (IMHO, which is as good as anyone's HO) English versions as well as a Spanish version that I can read, memorize, preach and teach from.

I'm quite frankly tired of being told I HAVE TO do this or that regarding versions where there is admittedly NO SCRIPTURAL MANDATE to do so.

So, the playground is yours, boys. Have fun.
 

sag38

Active Member
If this doesn't bother some people, it bothers me. If the pastors of this board have no care for this then shame on you.

Aren't you being a little judgmental here? Why do you believe that your personal struggle suddenly has to become that of other pastors on this board?
 

ReformedBaptist

Well-Known Member
If this doesn't bother some people, it bothers me. If the pastors of this board have no care for this then shame on you.

Aren't you being a little judgmental here? Why do you believe that your personal struggle suddenly has to become that of other pastors on this board?

I would expect a pastor to care about the struggles of all Christians.
 

Winman

Active Member
It seems everyone on this board has overlooked my personal struggle and NOT ONE pastor has stepped up to actually come alongside and help.

I understand your struggle, because I went through this struggle myself. I saw all these various versions that were obviously very different from each other. And no two men seemed to agree. How was I, a simple young man, not a scholar to find the truth? And that is all I wanted to know, the truth, and I wanted to know it desperately. So, I prayed and prayed that God would reveal the truth to me and show me where his word is, if it existed at all in pure form anymore. You see, footnotes in my RSV spoke of "better manuscripts" and more "ancient manuscripts". Had God's words been lost in the ancient past?

And as I said earlier, one day I read Matthew 4:4. I had read this verse many times before, but this day the word "every" really stuck out to me.

Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

I couldn't help but have many questions about this verse. How could God expect me to live by every word he speaks if I cannot know every word? Is that fair? Can God punish me for not living by every word if it doesn't exist?

For all my confusion I believed that God is a God of love and wants all of us to know the truth and be saved. Why write the Bible at all if God wants to remain a hidden mystery to us?

So, it was that day I realized that I needed to quit listening to men who cause confusion and doubt. God's word must exist, it must be in the world, and there must be a way to discover it.

I then considered the many various versions. Would God's word be on a shelf somewhere unknown to man? That didn't make sense. I don't believe God is hiding from us.

So, I had to believe that one of the major and popular versions was that preserved word. I asked several pastors about this, and they gave me some very good books on how the various Bible versions came to be. It was very difficult study, many of these books were hundreds of years old and difficult to read.

But I became convinced that the KJB was that preserved version in English. I had always been leaning that way from the beginning, it may be unscriptural, but I sensed it was the correct version, but these books convinced me it was the true word of God in our language.

Now, this means nothing to you, but all I am saying is that there are many people who have gone through this struggle. And all I can say is that if you pray and search for the truth, God will reveal it to you, that is his promise.

Pro 2:1 My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;
2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;
3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.


James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.


If you mean business and want to know the truth, God has promised to reveal that to you. But you must start with faith, you must believe God's promise. You will not find the answer through scholarship, first you must believe God is good and loving and wants to reveal the truth to you.

Forget what men say, simply believe God's promises. Start there. Ask for the truth and you shall receive it.

Matt 7:7 A sk, and it shall be given you; s eek, and ye shall find; k nock, and it shall be opened unto you:

I hope this has helped you. I am not a pastor, but I fully understand your struggle, I went through it myself.
 

RAdam

New Member
Here is my major problem with textual criticism. The major function of textual criticism is to ascertain the correct reading of a text. The textual critic wants to arrive at what most closely resembles the original text. I don't think I have in any way misrepresented their objective.

In order to accomplish his objective, the textual critic must go about questioning the word of God. This is my chief problem with textual criticism. Man ends up setting himself up as judge and juror of what God said. Now, many will deny this, but to them I ask how they determine what is the true meaning? The answer I will receive will invariably come back to some standard or rule man conceived of. So then man is the final arbiter of what is the true reading of God's word.

Obviously, this is a natural tendency in man. Man is constantly questioning God. We ask why God didn't send rain today when we so desperately needed it. We ask why God doesn't do this or that, which we want Him to do, implying that we are able to judge His doings and should be the final arbiter on whether or not He has done correctly. Why does man do this? My answer is because that is what was introduced into man by the serpent at the fall. The devil questioned God's word and introduced to man the idea that he could question whether or not God had done rightly in commanding him not to eat of the fruit of that one tree.

Now, you may say that you are not doing what the devil did, or following this natural tendency in man. To that I ask you what the bible says about your practice. Does it tell you to take manuscripts and compare them so that you can determine what is and what is not God's word? Does the bible tell you that textual criticism was in practice during any time covered in its pages? Does the bible give you any indication that God needs you or desires to use you to determine what is the bible and ascertain what some original copy said? What? It does not? Then upon what authority do you proceed in your objective? What roadmap have you to follow and who devised it? Does not the bible declare that God Himself would preserve the word? Does not Jesus say that man shall live by every word of God? Do not the bible authors argue from one word in the scriptures at times? Did they ever refer to the originals?

I must come to the conclusion that textual criticism is not of God, but is wholly of man.
 

ReformedBaptist

Well-Known Member
I understand your struggle, because I went through this struggle myself. I saw all these various versions that were obviously very different from each other. And no two men seemed to agree. How was I, a simple young man, not a scholar to find the truth? And that is all I wanted to know, the truth, and I wanted to know it desperately. So, I prayed and prayed that God would reveal the truth to me and show me where his word is, if it existed at all in pure form anymore. You see, footnotes in my RSV spoke of "better manuscripts" and more "ancient manuscripts". Had God's words been lost in the ancient past?

And as I said earlier, one day I read Matthew 4:4. I had read this verse many times before, but this day the word "every" really stuck out to me.

Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

I couldn't help but have many questions about this verse. How could God expect me to live by every word he speaks if I cannot know every word? Is that fair? Can God punish me for not living by every word if it doesn't exist?

For all my confusion I believed that God is a God of love and wants all of us to know the truth and be saved. Why write the Bible at all if God wants to remain a hidden mystery to us?

So, it was that day I realized that I needed to quit listening to men who cause confusion and doubt. God's word must exist, it must be in the world, and there must be a way to discover it.

I then considered the many various versions. Would God's word be on a shelf somewhere unknown to man? That didn't make sense. I don't believe God is hiding from us.

So, I had to believe that one of the major and popular versions was that preserved word. I asked several pastors about this, and they gave me some very good books on how the various Bible versions came to be. It was very difficult study, many of these books were hundreds of years old and difficult to read.

But I became convinced that the KJB was that preserved version in English. I had always been leaning that way from the beginning, it may be unscriptural, but I sensed it was the correct version, but these books convinced me it was the true word of God in our language.

Now, this means nothing to you, but all I am saying is that there are many people who have gone through this struggle. And all I can say is that if you pray and search for the truth, God will reveal it to you, that is his promise.

Pro 2:1 My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;
2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;
3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.


James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.


If you mean business and want to know the truth, God has promised to reveal that to you. But you must start with faith, you must believe God's promise. You will not find the answer through scholarship, first you must believe God is good and loving and wants to reveal the truth to you.

Forget what men say, simply believe God's promises. Start there. Ask for the truth and you shall receive it.

Matt 7:7 A sk, and it shall be given you; s eek, and ye shall find; k nock, and it shall be opened unto you:

I hope this has helped you. I am not a pastor, but I fully understand your struggle, I went through it myself.

THat is a help, and I agree. I am also beginning with the presupposition that God has spoken to HIs people, He HAS given His words, and that He would preserve them for His people.

I did some study on this awhile back and concluded with the Traditional Text. For whatever reason that seems good the Lord the subject is being raised again. There is an obvious difference between the Greek texts that underly the KJV/Geneva Bible and the versions based on the Critical Text.

I know your not a pastor, but your reply was more pastoral than what I have seen here.
 

Winman

Active Member
THat is a help, and I agree. I am also beginning with the presupposition that God has spoken to HIs people, He HAS given His words, and that He would preserve them for His people.

I did some study on this awhile back and concluded with the Traditional Text. For whatever reason that seems good the Lord the subject is being raised again. There is an obvious difference between the Greek texts that underly the KJV/Geneva Bible and the versions based on the Critical Text.

I know your not a pastor, but your reply was more pastoral than what I have seen here.

You are doing well, you started with the presupposition that God always tells the truth. That is faith. :thumbs:

But you have to watch, when you get engaged with men, they will continually try to cause you to doubt. They will use what may appear to be logical and scholarly arguments to persuade you.

I don't care if people believe me a fool, or discount me because I am not a scholar. I believe what God says, and God cannot lie.

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

The scriptures often speak of the test of our faith. This is the test.
 

ReformedBaptist

Well-Known Member
I found this statement on the Trinitarian Bible Society's website. I think its worded well and accurately states what it is I believe the Bible teaches.

In conformity to God’s purpose, promise, and command, faithful and
accurate copies were made (Deuteronomy 17:18; Proverbs 25:1) and,
through God’s special providential care, His Word has been preserved in
all generations (Psalm 119:152; Matthew 5:18; 24:35; Luke 16:17; 1
Peter 1:25). The professing people of God under the Old and New
Testaments have been the appointed custodians of His Word (Psalm
147:19,20; Romans 3:2; Colossians 4:16; 1 Thessalonians 5:27).
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
Here is my major problem with textual criticism. The major function of textual criticism is to ascertain the correct reading of a text. The textual critic wants to arrive at what most closely resembles the original text. I don't think I have in any way misrepresented their objective.
That is correct.
In order to accomplish his objective, the textual critic must go about questioning the word of God.
That is NOT correct.
This is my chief problem with textual criticism.
Then you don't understand what textual criticism really is.
Man ends up setting himself up as judge and juror of what God said.
No. The saints of God accept the responsibility God has given them to be the guardians of His word. If you will look at just a few verses you will see just how true that is. Romans 3:2 tells us "because that unto them were committed the oracles of God" speaking of the OT saints who preserved the OT.


Colossians 4:16 tells us "And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea." The church was to copy the epistle and send it to Laodicea to be read in that church.

1 Thessalonians 5:27 says the same thing.

Now, many will deny this, but to them I ask how they determine what is the true meaning?
There is no question that every single Hebrew and Greek manuscript is different from every other Hebrew and Greek manuscript. Errors have crept in. It is our sacred responsibility to closely examine (that is what the word "criticism" in "textual criticism" means, to closely examine) the manuscripts and determine which readings are true and which are in error. To fail to do so is to fail the sacred task God has set before us.
The answer I will receive will invariably come back to some standard or rule man conceived of.
No. It is to believe God's promise to preserve His word, and to accept the responsibility to be the guardians of His word.
So then man is the final arbiter of what is the true reading of God's word.
Wrong again. It is simply to accept the task God has given us.

Man is constantly questioning God.
That is, unfortunately, true. Just as you question God's command to accept the task he has given us as the guardians of His word.
To that I ask you what the bible says about your practice.
It commands us to guard His word and remove errors that creep in during the copying process.
Does it tell you to take manuscripts and compare them so that you can determine what is and what is not God's word?
Yes.
Does the bible tell you that textual criticism was in practice during any time covered in its pages?
Yes, from the close of the canon until today we have been commanded to guard His word and remove any errors found therein.
Does the bible give you any indication that God needs you or desires to use you to determine what is the bible and ascertain what some original copy said?
Yes, in the verses I posted.
What? It does not?
Uh, yes, it does!
Then upon what authority do you proceed in your objective?
Under God's Authority according to His command.
What roadmap have you to follow and who devised it?
We would use established rules to identify the errors and remove them.
Does not the bible declare that God Himself would preserve the word?
Yes, and He has. It is up to us to guard His preserved word and remove errors as they creep in. Do you think God is too stupid or inept to use men to accomplish His will?
Does not Jesus say that man shall live by every word of God?
Yes, which is why we obey God's command to guard that which he has committed unto us.
Do not the bible authors argue from one word in the scriptures at times?
Yes, which is why it is imperative to make sure we have the right word and the wrong word is removed. To do less would be a sin against God.
Did they ever refer to the originals?
Yes.

I must come to the conclusion that textual criticism is not of God, but is wholly of man.
Then you know very little about God, about the Bible, and about the responsibilities His people are willing accept.
 

RAdam

New Member
I'm glad you said, "we would use established established rules to identify errors and remove them." Answer me this question: who established those rules?

Furthermore, if there are errors that need to be removed, then has God really preserved His word? It sounds more like man is preserving God's word.
 

RAdam

New Member
Also, you said, "It commands us to guard His word and remove errors that creep in during the copying process." I would be most interested to know what text tells us to "remove errors that creep in during the copying process."
 

ReformedBaptist

Well-Known Member
Interesting thought:

Extant Copies: Copies of the Greek manuscripts that have survived until the present time. Although the extant copies are of various ages, completeness and accuracy, the great majority of them (over 90%) agree with the traditional form of the New Testament found in the printed editions of the Received Text.

This a quote from the Trinitarian Bible Society's website. If this is true, then the KJV is a good translation based on a good Greek text, regardless of Textual Criticism.
 

Deacon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Here is what I have faced:

1. An apparant error in the modern version wtih respect to Mark 1:1-3 and the discovery that it is a msss family issue.

2. Studying the Word of God with the men of my church in the Greek and again discovering two different words in the Greek because of two different sets of manuscripts.


WHAT IS THE WORD OF GOD?

If this doesn't bother some people, it bothers me. If the pastors of this board have no care for this then shame on you.
There are a few pastors that have answered and you've failed to interact.
The problem is you want someone to tell you the answer instead of figuring it out for yourself!

I'll do the work for you.

Here's the raw data and my analysis (others are free to disagree):


As it is written in Isaiah the prophet:
“BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU,
WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY;
THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS,
‘MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD,
MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT.’ ”
Mark 1:2-3 NAS


as it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Mark 1:2–3 (AV 1873)


“καθως γεγραπται εν τω ησαια τω προφητη
WH GNT (1881)

“ως γεγραπται εν τοις προφηταις
Robinson Majority GNT

INTERNAL EVIDENCE

Mark 1:2 quotes from both Malachi and Isaiah.

“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me:”
Malachi 3:1 KJV

”The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.”
Isaiah 40:3” KJV
Perceived problem: Mark doesn’t acknowledge his quote from Malachi.


Both parallels in the gospels of Matthew (3:3) and Luke (3:4) use Isaiah’s name.

EXTERNAL EVIDENCE

“Isaiah”Modern text
Alex: *א B L Δ 33 892 1241 1243 2427 cop[sa] cop[bo] NR CEI Riv TILC Nv NM WH
Alex/Cæs: Origen[1/4] Origen[lat]
Alex/Byz: 892
Cæs: 22 565 205 1071 f1 arm geo
Cæs/Byz: 700
West: D Augustine Ambrosiaster (Chromatius) (Jerome) Irenaeus[gr] (Victorinus-Pettau) vg Irenaeus[lat1/3]
Byz: Θ 372 2174 2737 pc l[253] Basil Epiphanius Hesychius Serapion Severian Titus-Bostra Victor-Antioch syr[p] syr[pal] syr[h(mg)] goth

[Interesting that Basil whom you quote in your byline didn’t have a problem with this verse.]

“the prophets” - Majority text
Alex: A 1006 1342 cop[bo(ms)(mg) ]
Alex/Byz: 579
Cæs: f13 1424 arm
West: W 1292 1505 1646 vg[ms] Irenaeus[at2/3]
Byz: E F G H K P Π Σ 28 180 597 1009 1010 1079 1195 1216 1230 1242 1253 1344 1365 1546 Byz Lect syr[h] eth slav Asterius Photius Theophylact ς ND Dio

Data analysis:
The earliest extant manuscript that may have helped doesn’t (P45 -P. Chester Beatty I, [dated early third century ] the gospel of Mark begins at Mark 4:36).

Both traditions contain the variant.
The earliest texts and many of the early church fathers use the name “Isaiah”.

Problem: There are many more later (Byzantine) manuscripts, the majority of which use the phrase “the prophets”.

Common suggested reason for variant: Scribes would want to correct "Isaiah" since Mark quotes from two sources.

Rob
 
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TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
I'm glad you said, "we would use established established rules to identify errors and remove them." Answer me this question: who established those rules?
God's people, being moved by God's Spirit, using God given logical abilities, formulated the rules according to the observable evidences of God's creation.
Furthermore, if there are errors that need to be removed, then has God really preserved His word? It sounds more like man is preserving God's word.
Yes, God is using His surrendered people to preserve His word. God has always used His people, at least those who are willing to "stand in the gap." I invite you to yield to His will and stand in the gap with us to be used by Him to preserve His word. :)
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
Also, you said, "It commands us to guard His word and remove errors that creep in during the copying process." I would be most interested to know what text tells us to "remove errors that creep in during the copying process."
It is understood that if we guard His word, we will observe and remove errors. If we refuse to guard His word we will allow errors to remain. :)
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
Interesting thought:



This a quote from the Trinitarian Bible Society's website. If this is true, then the KJV is a good translation based on a good Greek text, regardless of Textual Criticism.
Not regardless of textual criticism, but because of it. :)
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
Both parallels in the gospels of Matthew (3:3) and Luke (3:4) use Isaiah’s name.
That is a somewhat disingenuous statement. When we read Matthew 3:3 and Luke 3:4 we see that neither of them quote from Malachi so it stands to reason they mention Isaiah whom they are quoting. Isaiah is not the issue. The inclusion of the Malachi quote and ascribing it to Isaiah is the issue. :)
Common suggested reason for variant: Scribes would want to correct "Isaiah" since Mark quotes from two sources.
Other way around. The reading in the Alexandrian textform is more likely the result of an attempt at harmonization with the other two Gospels. They say "Isaiah" so the scribe, in a misplaced desire to harmonize the three, replaced "prophets" with "Isaiah." :)
 

ReformedBaptist

Well-Known Member
There are a few pastors that have answered and you've failed to interact.
The problem is you want someone to tell you the answer instead of figuring it out for yourself!

I'll do the work for you.

Here's the raw data and my analysis (others are free to disagree):


As it is written in Isaiah the prophet:
“BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU,
WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY;
THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS,
‘MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD,
MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT.’ ”
Mark 1:2-3 NAS


as it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Mark 1:2–3 (AV 1873)


“καθως γεγραπται εν τω ησαια τω προφητη
WH GNT (1881)

“ως γεγραπται εν τοις προφηταις
Robinson Majority GNT

INTERNAL EVIDENCE

Mark 1:2 quotes from both Malachi and Isaiah.


Perceived problem: Mark doesn’t acknowledge his quote from Malachi.


Both parallels in the gospels of Matthew (3:3) and Luke (3:4) use Isaiah’s name.

EXTERNAL EVIDENCE

“Isaiah”Modern text
Alex: *א B L Δ 33 892 1241 1243 2427 cop[sa] cop[bo] NR CEI Riv TILC Nv NM WH
Alex/Cæs: Origen[1/4] Origen[lat]
Alex/Byz: 892
Cæs: 22 565 205 1071 f1 arm geo
Cæs/Byz: 700
West: D Augustine Ambrosiaster (Chromatius) (Jerome) Irenaeus[gr] (Victorinus-Pettau) vg Irenaeus[lat1/3]
Byz: Θ 372 2174 2737 pc l[253] Basil Epiphanius Hesychius Serapion Severian Titus-Bostra Victor-Antioch syr[p] syr[pal] syr[h(mg)] goth

[Interesting that Basil whom you quote in your byline didn’t have a problem with this verse.]

“the prophets” - Majority text
Alex: A 1006 1342 cop[bo(ms)(mg) ]
Alex/Byz: 579
Cæs: f13 1424 arm
West: W 1292 1505 1646 vg[ms] Irenaeus[at2/3]
Byz: E F G H K P Π Σ 28 180 597 1009 1010 1079 1195 1216 1230 1242 1253 1344 1365 1546 Byz Lect syr[h] eth slav Asterius Photius Theophylact ς ND Dio

Data analysis:
The earliest extant manuscript that may have helped doesn’t (P45 -P. Chester Beatty I, [dated early third century ] the gospel of Mark begins at Mark 4:36).

Both traditions contain the variant.
The earliest texts and many of the early church fathers use the name “Isaiah”.

Problem: There are many more later (Byzantine) manuscripts, the majority of which use the phrase “the prophets”.

Common suggested reason for variant: Scribes would want to correct "Isaiah" since Mark quotes from two sources.

Rob

Do you really think I am going to read your post after you insult me.
 
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