Dean Burgon Quote

It is true that many scholars say verse 7 applies to the poor and needy and not God's word, but there are many scholars who take the opposite view and present good arguments for it.

So, there are many scholars who say verse 7 applies to God's word and not the poor and needy.

 

May God help you in your search for peace with Him on these issues. I'm not smart enough to figure out why He did not strike W&H dead if they were indeed messing with His Word, or why He allowed so many mss that do not all agree to be found. Nor am I smart enough to understand all of the textual issues. I do know there's an answer to your questions but I do not believe it is found in the realm of KJVO.

I will instead choose to be thankful that I have at least four trustworthy (IMHO, which is as good as anyone's HO) English versions as well as a Spanish version that I can read, memorize, preach and teach from.

I'm quite frankly tired of being told I HAVE TO do this or that regarding versions where there is admittedly NO SCRIPTURAL MANDATE to do so.

So, the playground is yours, boys. Have fun.

 

If this doesn't bother some people, it bothers me. If the pastors of this board have no care for this then shame on you.

Aren't you being a little judgmental here? Why do you believe that your personal struggle suddenly has to become that of other pastors on this board?

 

I understand your struggle, because I went through this struggle myself. I saw all these various versions that were obviously very different from each other. And no two men seemed to agree. How was I, a simple young man, not a scholar to find the truth? And that is all I wanted to know, the truth, and I wanted to know it desperately. So, I prayed and prayed that God would reveal the truth to me and show me where his word is, if it existed at all in pure form anymore. You see, footnotes in my RSV spoke of "better manuscripts" and more "ancient manuscripts". Had God's words been lost in the ancient past?

And as I said earlier, one day I read Matthew 4:4. I had read this verse many times before, but this day the word "every" really stuck out to me.

Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

I couldn't help but have many questions about this verse. How could God expect me to live by every word he speaks if I cannot know every word? Is that fair? Can God punish me for not living by every word if it doesn't exist?

For all my confusion I believed that God is a God of love and wants all of us to know the truth and be saved. Why write the Bible at all if God wants to remain a hidden mystery to us?

So, it was that day I realized that I needed to quit listening to men who cause confusion and doubt. God's word must exist, it must be in the world, and there must be a way to discover it.

I then considered the many various versions. Would God's word be on a shelf somewhere unknown to man? That didn't make sense. I don't believe God is hiding from us.

So, I had to believe that one of the major and popular versions was that preserved word. I asked several pastors about this, and they gave me some very good books on how the various Bible versions came to be. It was very difficult study, many of these books were hundreds of years old and difficult to read.

But I became convinced that the KJB was that preserved version in English. I had always been leaning that way from the beginning, it may be unscriptural, but I sensed it was the correct version, but these books convinced me it was the true word of God in our language.

Now, this means nothing to you, but all I am saying is that there are many people who have gone through this struggle. And all I can say is that if you pray and search for the truth, God will reveal it to you, that is his promise.

Pro 2:1 My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;
2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;
3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

If you mean business and want to know the truth, God has promised to reveal that to you. But you must start with faith, you must believe God's promise. You will not find the answer through scholarship, first you must believe God is good and loving and wants to reveal the truth to you.

Forget what men say, simply believe God's promises. Start there. Ask for the truth and you shall receive it.

Matt 7:7 A sk, and it shall be given you; s eek, and ye shall find; k nock, and it shall be opened unto you:

I hope this has helped you. I am not a pastor, but I fully understand your struggle, I went through it myself.

 

Here is my major problem with textual criticism. The major function of textual criticism is to ascertain the correct reading of a text. The textual critic wants to arrive at what most closely resembles the original text. I don't think I have in any way misrepresented their objective.

In order to accomplish his objective, the textual critic must go about questioning the word of God. This is my chief problem with textual criticism. Man ends up setting himself up as judge and juror of what God said. Now, many will deny this, but to them I ask how they determine what is the true meaning? The answer I will receive will invariably come back to some standard or rule man conceived of. So then man is the final arbiter of what is the true reading of God's word.

Obviously, this is a natural tendency in man. Man is constantly questioning God. We ask why God didn't send rain today when we so desperately needed it. We ask why God doesn't do this or that, which we want Him to do, implying that we are able to judge His doings and should be the final arbiter on whether or not He has done correctly. Why does man do this? My answer is because that is what was introduced into man by the serpent at the fall. The devil questioned God's word and introduced to man the idea that he could question whether or not God had done rightly in commanding him not to eat of the fruit of that one tree.

Now, you may say that you are not doing what the devil did, or following this natural tendency in man. To that I ask you what the bible says about your practice. Does it tell you to take manuscripts and compare them so that you can determine what is and what is not God's word? Does the bible tell you that textual criticism was in practice during any time covered in its pages? Does the bible give you any indication that God needs you or desires to use you to determine what is the bible and ascertain what some original copy said? What? It does not? Then upon what authority do you proceed in your objective? What roadmap have you to follow and who devised it? Does not the bible declare that God Himself would preserve the word? Does not Jesus say that man shall live by every word of God? Do not the bible authors argue from one word in the scriptures at times? Did they ever refer to the originals?

I must come to the conclusion that textual criticism is not of God, but is wholly of man.

 

You are doing well, you started with the presupposition that God always tells the truth. That is faith. :thumbs:

But you have to watch, when you get engaged with men, they will continually try to cause you to doubt. They will use what may appear to be logical and scholarly arguments to persuade you.

I don't care if people believe me a fool, or discount me because I am not a scholar. I believe what God says, and God cannot lie.

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

The scriptures often speak of the test of our faith. This is the test.

 

I'm glad you said, "we would use established established rules to identify errors and remove them." Answer me this question: who established those rules?

Furthermore, if there are errors that need to be removed, then has God really preserved His word? It sounds more like man is preserving God's word.

 

Also, you said, "It commands us to guard His word and remove errors that creep in during the copying process." I would be most interested to know what text tells us to "remove errors that creep in during the copying process."

 

There are a few pastors that have answered and you've failed to interact.
The problem is you want someone to tell you the answer instead of figuring it out for yourself!

I'll do the work for you.

Here's the raw data and my analysis (others are free to disagree):


As it is written in Isaiah the prophet:
“BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU,
WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY;
THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS,
‘MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD,
MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT.’ ”
Mark 1:2-3 NAS


as it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Mark 1:2–3 (AV 1873)


“καθως γεγραπται εν τω ησαια τω προφητη”
WH GNT (1881)

“ως γεγραπται εν τοις προφηταις”
Robinson Majority GNT

INTERNAL EVIDENCE

Mark 1:2 quotes from both Malachi and Isaiah.

Perceived problem: Mark doesn’t acknowledge his quote from Malachi.


Both parallels in the gospels of Matthew (3:3) and Luke (3:4) use Isaiah’s name.

EXTERNAL EVIDENCE

“Isaiah” – Modern text
Alex: *א B L Δ 33 892 1241 1243 2427 cop[sa] cop[bo] NR CEI Riv TILC Nv NM WH
Alex/Cæs: Origen[1/4] Origen[lat]
Alex/Byz: 892
Cæs: 22 565 205 1071 f1 arm geo
Cæs/Byz: 700
West: D Augustine Ambrosiaster (Chromatius) (Jerome) Irenaeus[gr] (Victorinus-Pettau) vg Irenaeus[lat1/3]
Byz: Θ 372 2174 2737 pc l[253] Basil Epiphanius Hesychius Serapion Severian Titus-Bostra Victor-Antioch syr[p] syr[pal] syr[h(mg)] goth

[Interesting that Basil whom you quote in your byline didn’t have a problem with this verse.]

“the prophets” - Majority text
Alex: A 1006 1342 cop[bo(ms)(mg) ]
Alex/Byz: 579
Cæs: f13 1424 arm
West: W 1292 1505 1646 vg[ms] Irenaeus[at2/3]
Byz: E F G H K P Π Σ 28 180 597 1009 1010 1079 1195 1216 1230 1242 1253 1344 1365 1546 Byz Lect syr[h] eth slav Asterius Photius Theophylact ς ND Dio

Data analysis:
The earliest extant manuscript that may have helped doesn’t (P45 -P. Chester Beatty I, [dated early third century ] the gospel of Mark begins at Mark 4:36).

Both traditions contain the variant.
The earliest texts and many of the early church fathers use the name “Isaiah”.

Problem: There are many more later (Byzantine) manuscripts, the majority of which use the phrase “the prophets”.

Common suggested reason for variant: Scribes would want to correct "Isaiah" since Mark quotes from two sources.

Rob

 

Just telling it like it is.

He that has ears, let him hear.

Rob