joyfulkeeperathome
New Member
It is sad to note that in reality, this child will probably spend less time in jail than the man who ran over the cat!
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Death Penalty for Children?
- Thread starter NaasPreacher (C4K)
- Start date
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
These are two totally different stories, they have no connection at all. One is a adult with a record of violence and drug abuse, and one is a 12 year old child who has been kicked out of school.
No one has ever said "let the kid walk." No one has called for a lenient period of incarceration. The opposition here is to executing a child.
No one has ever said "let the kid walk." No one has called for a lenient period of incarceration. The opposition here is to executing a child.
joyfulkeeperathome
New Member
I realize that, I'm just stating the truth from what Diane posted earlier about what would actually happen to him (since we all know that execution will not take place)
The Galatian
Active Member
I just can't see executing a 12-year-old. I've certainly seen 12-year-olds that deserved it. Some of them, if sufficiently abused, can be unbelievably vicious.
But you don't kill children. Sorry.
But you don't kill children. Sorry.
joyfulkeeperathome
New Member
But he did...I'm not saying I'm for execution...honestly, I don't know and I'm very glad I don't have to make that decision. I can see both sides of the issue. But I do think this boy needs more than a slap on the wrist and I can't fathom that it will be taken off of his record!!!! I really think that is a mistake!!!
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Roger,
Nobody has questioned your salvation. You asked the question if Jesus would give the death penalty. I said yes. You tried to limit the commands of Jesus to his incarnate revelation. I asked you if you believed Jesus was God. I figured you did, but had to ask since we are in the "All Christians" debate forum and there are some "Christians" who do not believe in the diety of Christ. It was a legitimate question to establish common ground before I made my argument that Jesus ,as God, did order the deaths of children in the OT (Pharoh's son, Israeli wars), and wasn't the warm fuzzy feel good God that was being depicted by some who wouldn't pour out his wrath in the NT (Annanias and Sapphira). I am sorry you took it wrong, but nobody questioned your salvation in any way, shape, or form. I honestly am not sure why you decided to take such great offense to the question, but it was a logical question to ask in the context of this debate in order for me to make my argument.
I have to see that some find it reasonable that it is permissable to execute a 12 year old child. [/QUOTE]
Roger,
Do you believe this child is a murderer if he did what he says he did? I only wonder because I noticed how you refuse to call him a murderer, and choose instead to use the more sympathetic term of "child" when referring to him. I also think I remember you saying earlier in the thread that you think he is not a hardened criminal. Please tell me, besides his age, what makes him any less of a murderer or hardened criminal than an 18 year old? I do think you have several children of your own. What if he had murdered one of your children? Would he just be a "twelve year old child" to you, or would he suddenly become the hardened criminal who murdered your child? I know what my opinion is.
Others must see that it is just possible to disagree for very real reasons. [/QUOTE]
I understand the emotinoal reasons for rejecting my opinion. I can even see your side of it to a point on an emotional level. But, no I don't think it is reasonable to allow any murderer to escape the death penalty.
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
I have already answered this question earlier in the thread:
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
I understand the emotion behind this argument. However, I disagree. You don't kill children. You execute murderers. This child, if found guilty, is a murderer.
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
I can also see both sides and even understand why they feel the way they do. I simply don't agree with them. I agree with you, BTW, that he shoudl not recieve a slap on the wrist.
Joseph Botwinick
D
dianetavegia
Guest
I would wonder if this 12 year old had raped the 8 year old but not killed her if we would have demanded more than 2 years of incarceration in a juvenile facility and 2 on parole with his record expunged at 18?
Bartimaeus
New Member
This is a totally unfair assumption. It is based on the idea that "If you don't agree you MUST not understand the whole picture." None of us know what Sheila's "scope of experience" is.
Why not fling the same accusation at me?
Emotions are running high on BOTH sides of this debate. One side accuses the other of lack of compassion while the other questions the very salvation of some of those who disagree (Do you beleive that Jesus is God?).
I have to see that some find it reasonable that it is permissable to execute a 12 year old child. Others must see that it is just possible to disagree for very real reasons. </font>[/QUOTE]First of all please read that I used the words "Most likely" and "probably". It is apparent to me that your threshold of reasoning is very thin to call this an accusation. I was a police officer for over 14 yrs and I know that MOST people do not come into contact with incorrigible child killers. I am basing my GENERAL STATEMENT on my experience with the public. Granted, this child has not been found guilty and should be given due process as any other person charged with a crime. I am not advocating a lynching and concerning the use of the word "fling", I am sure that I would burn your hand through the catcher's mitt.
Thanks ------Bart
rivers1222
Member
If I might comment on a side note:
What surprises me most about this debate is the lenientcy of the sentence if convicted. Never thought a yankee state would have tougher penalties for juvy offenders than in GA. I'm not a lawyer but i remember a similiar case here a few years back and he was confined till 21 and then reviewed. I might not have the ages right but I will see if i can find it.
What surprises me most about this debate is the lenientcy of the sentence if convicted. Never thought a yankee state would have tougher penalties for juvy offenders than in GA. I'm not a lawyer but i remember a similiar case here a few years back and he was confined till 21 and then reviewed. I might not have the ages right but I will see if i can find it.
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Roger,
Do you believe that there are children who are hardened criminals? Do you not think that is possible? Is there any number of child murderers that could convince you that there are children on this earth who are hardened criminals?
What would it take for a child to do before you said they were a hardened criminal?
Joseph Botwinick
D
dianetavegia
Guest
The number of young GIRLS who are committing murder now is shocking. Two young teens from the Atlanta area (white girls/ lesbians at 14) BRUTALLY killed the one girls grandparents who had taken her in because they didn't want the two to hang around together. The grandparents were very active in their Baptist church and had given up their retirement to raise this wayward girl.
menageriekeeper
Active Member
You know this is a very hard thing for all involved. I don't believe there will ever be a solution that will be fair to all children who commit crimes of this nature or to the families of the victims. It will probably take a change in the law provides for trial and sentencing of this age group(12-16). Neither the juvy system or the adult system seems to fit the varied understanding/knowledge of this age group. We need our lawmakers to fix this.
It is possible though that we need to take away age from the trial process for kids between 12 and 16. Find out first if they're guilty, then apply their age in the sentencing phase.
Perhaps if juries were given the choice between sentencing them as a child and sentencing them as adults a fairer punishment could be handed out. I want you to understand what I'm suggesting. The kid either did the crime or he didn't. Guilt should be proven without regard to age. Then the jury should be allow to consider his age and apparent understanding when handing down a sentence. If they think he was capable of cold blooded, premeditated murder then they could hand down a death sentence. If they think he didn't understand then they could sentence him to juvy.
I truely don't believe we'll ever see a 12 year old executed. By the time all appeals are exhausted this kid will be in his twenties. Fully able to comprehend what he is being punished for. Time enough for him to see to his eternal soul.
It is possible though that we need to take away age from the trial process for kids between 12 and 16. Find out first if they're guilty, then apply their age in the sentencing phase.
Perhaps if juries were given the choice between sentencing them as a child and sentencing them as adults a fairer punishment could be handed out. I want you to understand what I'm suggesting. The kid either did the crime or he didn't. Guilt should be proven without regard to age. Then the jury should be allow to consider his age and apparent understanding when handing down a sentence. If they think he was capable of cold blooded, premeditated murder then they could hand down a death sentence. If they think he didn't understand then they could sentence him to juvy.
I truely don't believe we'll ever see a 12 year old executed. By the time all appeals are exhausted this kid will be in his twenties. Fully able to comprehend what he is being punished for. Time enough for him to see to his eternal soul.
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
Nobody is calling for for leniency Diane.
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
I am sure you could Bart.
I have dealt with children my entire adult life, including criminal children. Please note that I have never advocated lenient punishment. I am not against the death penalty. I am opposed to giving a child a lethal injection.
It is possible that thse who disagree with the execution of a criminal child may also have experience with them.
[ December 07, 2004, 12:40 AM: Message edited by: C4K ]
joyfulkeeperathome
New Member
Joseph, thanks, I didn't mean to imply that you couldn't see both sides b/c you and Diane have both presented a great case and I appreciate reading your insights concerning the case!!!
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Thank you a lot, Joyfulkeeperathome!!!!!!
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph Botwinick
Bartimaeus
New Member
C4K,
I respect your opinion and I believe I understand where you are coming from. I do not "like" the fact that we have to deal with children who are involved with crime at such a deep and severe level. America (outside of the moral law of God) is operating and thriving in basically a pagan culture. We are in a cultural war and the culture is one that will eventually feed (if not already) itself on the victims it randomly chooses. Life is not sacred here. Think of the governmental school shootings. Jonesboro, Ark and Columbine, Colorado. We have more children killing children than ever before in our history. God's moral law given in the scriptures for a nation of people have not been abbrogated. It is still in effect. There is no age limitation on murderers. The New Testemant did not change God's prescribed pattern for society. I do not want to see children suffer as murderers either, but WE DO NOT HAVE A CHOICE. (emphasis for the statement only and not ment to be a slam against you) Should a police officer not use deadly force in stopping a child murderer only because it is a child? If not, we must be consistant and carry out our continuing responsibilty to society and follow the law of God in dealing with murderers. They are among us.
Thanks -----Bart
I respect your opinion and I believe I understand where you are coming from. I do not "like" the fact that we have to deal with children who are involved with crime at such a deep and severe level. America (outside of the moral law of God) is operating and thriving in basically a pagan culture. We are in a cultural war and the culture is one that will eventually feed (if not already) itself on the victims it randomly chooses. Life is not sacred here. Think of the governmental school shootings. Jonesboro, Ark and Columbine, Colorado. We have more children killing children than ever before in our history. God's moral law given in the scriptures for a nation of people have not been abbrogated. It is still in effect. There is no age limitation on murderers. The New Testemant did not change God's prescribed pattern for society. I do not want to see children suffer as murderers either, but WE DO NOT HAVE A CHOICE. (emphasis for the statement only and not ment to be a slam against you) Should a police officer not use deadly force in stopping a child murderer only because it is a child? If not, we must be consistant and carry out our continuing responsibilty to society and follow the law of God in dealing with murderers. They are among us.
Thanks -----Bart