following-Him
Active Member
Most definitely. The Bible says so. And I believe what is written in the Bible.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Death Penalty for Children?
- Thread starter NaasPreacher (C4K)
- Start date
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
I am going to assume the answer to my question is yes. Tell me, did God not order the deaths of every man, woman and child in the Bible during one of Israel's wars? If Jesus is God, (which I hope we agree he is) then he ordered that. I don't think you have any idea what God would do in this case. And therefore, it is a ridicilous question. I think I could make every bit as much of a case that he would give the death penalty as you could that he wouldn't. Either way, God is holy, sovereign, and just no matter which decision he decides to make.
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph Botwinick
following-Him
Active Member
Joseph,
In the New Testament Jesus brought a new covenant, a covenant of Love.
God Bless
Sheila
In the New Testament Jesus brought a new covenant, a covenant of Love.
God Bless
Sheila
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
Can you show me a single case in the New Testament where Jesus Incarnate ever taught or promoted death for a sinner He was dealing with?
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
He also struck Annanias and Sapphira dead on the spot for nothing more than mere dishonesty. Please, don't try this OT is God's wrath and NT is nothing but God's mercy argument with me. There is every bit as much mercy in the OT as there is in the NT, and there is every bit as much of the wrath of God in the NT as there is in the OT. I gotta go toSunday School.
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Can you show me a single case in the New Testament where Jesus Incarnate ever taught or promoted death for a sinner He was dealing with? </font>[/QUOTE]Annanias and Saphirra.
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
Annanias and Saphira lied to God. I didn't realise that Jesus was there Incaranate in Acts 5.
Jesus never taught death to sinners. He taught repentance and forgiveness. His wrath is reserved for those who will refuse to repent and accept His forgiveness. It is eternal wrath, not temporal wrath.
I can just see it. "Suffer the little children to come to me and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of God."
Then Jesus says - "Now take him away and crucify him!"
[ December 05, 2004, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: C4K ]
Jesus never taught death to sinners. He taught repentance and forgiveness. His wrath is reserved for those who will refuse to repent and accept His forgiveness. It is eternal wrath, not temporal wrath.
I can just see it. "Suffer the little children to come to me and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of God."
Then Jesus says - "Now take him away and crucify him!"
[ December 05, 2004, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: C4K ]
We are not talking about your average run-of-the-mill pre-teen 12 yr old boy. This kid had been such a brat that he had been permanently expelled from school. He was/is what used to be called incorrigible. He admitted to doing it for the pleasure of it. This is evil.
Would Jesus call for the death penalty?
This question misses the point.
Hypothetical, Ok? Should this same boy get hit by a truck, without salvation, would he go to hell? Of course he would. At 12, he is definitely old enough to know right from wrong. Good or evil.
So he would go to hell, and it is Jesus/God who would send him there, and He would do it justly.
See? The question, "would Jesus call for the death penalty?" is really no different than "would a loving God send soemone to hell?".
I agree, this is a VERY TOUGH case to call. And I cannot pretend to know where the line should be drawn. But this case is clear. Tough one, but still a clear one.
I would give the boy the benefit of a short period of time with a Bible believing pastor; in order to receive counseling about his soul. Then into eternity he goes.
In His service;
Jim
Would Jesus call for the death penalty?
This question misses the point.
Hypothetical, Ok? Should this same boy get hit by a truck, without salvation, would he go to hell? Of course he would. At 12, he is definitely old enough to know right from wrong. Good or evil.
So he would go to hell, and it is Jesus/God who would send him there, and He would do it justly.
See? The question, "would Jesus call for the death penalty?" is really no different than "would a loving God send soemone to hell?".
I agree, this is a VERY TOUGH case to call. And I cannot pretend to know where the line should be drawn. But this case is clear. Tough one, but still a clear one.
I would give the boy the benefit of a short period of time with a Bible believing pastor; in order to receive counseling about his soul. Then into eternity he goes.
In His service;
Jim
following-Him
Active Member
As I have previously stated, while this boy lives he has the opportunity to hear the Gospel and repent of his sins. If that were to happen, how would you regard him then?
In the Gospels, the death penalty for adultery was death. Jesus did not call for that penalty to be carried out regarding the woman who was caught in the act of adultery. He told her to go away and sin no more.
Also, as Christians we are called to be in the world and not of the world. There is nothing clear cut about this case at all. Even in the Old Testament as has already been stated, the age of responsibility was 13.
Sheila
In the Gospels, the death penalty for adultery was death. Jesus did not call for that penalty to be carried out regarding the woman who was caught in the act of adultery. He told her to go away and sin no more.
Also, as Christians we are called to be in the world and not of the world. There is nothing clear cut about this case at all. Even in the Old Testament as has already been stated, the age of responsibility was 13.
Sheila
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Did Jesus have to be there incarnate to be the one making the decision? Do you believe that Jesus is God? If so, then he certainly made that decision.
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
I would regard him the same way I did the lady in Texas who I think chopped her husband up with an axe, found Jesus in prison, and then went on crusade to save her own life and get out of being responsible for her actions. I would praise God for his salvation, but forgiveness does not always mean that the consequences of crime and sin go away. Justice is still needed.
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Uh-oh, Jim. You're making sense without appealing to emotion. Not a good thing...
BTW, I agree with you here.
Joseph Botwinick
D
dianetavegia
Guest
Jesus didn't miraculously let the thief down from the cross when he accepted Christ either.
Acts 25:10 So Paul said, "I stand at Caesar's judgment seat, where I ought to be judged. To the Jews I have done no wrong, as you very well know. 11 For if I am an offender, or have committed anything deserving of death, I do not object to dying; but if there is nothing in these things of which these men accuse me, no one can deliver me to them. I appeal to Caesar.".........25 But when I found that he had committed nothing deserving of death, and that he himself had appealed to Augustus, I decided to send him.
Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
Acts 25:10 So Paul said, "I stand at Caesar's judgment seat, where I ought to be judged. To the Jews I have done no wrong, as you very well know. 11 For if I am an offender, or have committed anything deserving of death, I do not object to dying; but if there is nothing in these things of which these men accuse me, no one can deliver me to them. I appeal to Caesar.".........25 But when I found that he had committed nothing deserving of death, and that he himself had appealed to Augustus, I decided to send him.
Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
We are talking about a child here folks - not a hardened adult criminal.
Joseph, your comment about whether I accept Jesus as Deity does not merit a response.
Again, would you all advocate the execution of a 6 year old who kills a 3 year old with a rock?
The death penalty has nothing to do with a 12 year old dying without Christ and going to hell.
The death penalty for a 12 year old is simply unjust and I still cannot possibly imagine Jesus sitting on a hury and saying, "Hang the little killer!"
I think we beating a dead horse here - you know my views, so I am out of here .
[ December 05, 2004, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: C4K ]
Joseph, your comment about whether I accept Jesus as Deity does not merit a response.
Again, would you all advocate the execution of a 6 year old who kills a 3 year old with a rock?
The death penalty has nothing to do with a 12 year old dying without Christ and going to hell.
The death penalty for a 12 year old is simply unjust and I still cannot possibly imagine Jesus sitting on a hury and saying, "Hang the little killer!"
I think we beating a dead horse here - you know my views, so I am out of here
.[ December 05, 2004, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: C4K ]
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
My question to you as to whether Jesus was God goes to the point that he would order the execution of children (Pharoh's son, Israeli wars), and yeah, even execute Annanias and Sapphira in the New testament. Do you believe that Jesus is God, or did some other god order these deaths? If the 6 year old intentionally murdered the 3 year old, that murderer should die. If it were an accident, that would be another issue altogether. There is no question here that the 12 year old murdered the 8 year old because "he wanted to". He should die for his crime. Your question was do we think God would sentence a 12 year old to death. If a just and sovereign God would send a 12 year old to hell for eternal torment (which is certainly worse than the death penalty), then what makes you think he wouldn't impose the death penalty? Do you believe that God would send a twelve year old lost person to hell? I never said hurry up hang the killer. Give him due process. Give him a trial. Give him a Bible believer who will witness to him. Then put a needle in his arm, and let him eternally go to sleep in this body (which is certainly a lot more humane than what he did to the girl).
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Let's frame this debate in the context of war. If an Israeli soldier in Jerusalem saw a 12 year old suicide bomber with a detonator in her hands coming to kill Israelis in the market or on a bus, would he be justified in shooting her before she could get to the innocents around him or push the button? Absolutely!!!!!!!!!
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph Botwinick
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
I was going to stay out, but your scenario about the war situation does not fit the argument at all. That Palestinian child poses an immediate threat to life and must be dealt with on the spot. The 12 year old we are talking about would no loger pose a threat if he were incarcerated until adulthood and then sentenced.
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
No threat for at least another two years of incarceration where he lifts weights and becomes an even more hardened criminal, gets released back into society with a clean record, and kills again. No thanks. This child may not be an immediate threat for 2 years, but will be an even bigger threat when he gets out.
Are you saying wait until he's 18 and then give him the death penalty? Why wait? Is he any less of a murderer at 12 than he will be at 18?
Joseph Botwinick
Are you saying wait until he's 18 and then give him the death penalty? Why wait? Is he any less of a murderer at 12 than he will be at 18?
Joseph Botwinick
D
dianetavegia
Guest
A six year old with a rock cannot be compared to a 12 year old squeezing the neck of an 8 year old for 2 minutes after she stops struggling.
A rock, even in the hands of an adult, can be a momentary burst of anger. Two minutes of intensive squeezing while watching another child die shows an evil I cannot comprehend.
A rock, even in the hands of an adult, can be a momentary burst of anger. Two minutes of intensive squeezing while watching another child die shows an evil I cannot comprehend.
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Here is where I think Diane and I are going to have to disagree. If the child throws that rock with the intent to kill the child, that is murder. If it is an accident, that is another issue altogether.
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph Botwinick