Death Penalty for Children?

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I still cannot accept that if God does it the government can do it.

I don't believe that you are truly condoning the system of legalised slavery that existed in the US because God demanded slavery for debtors and captives.

Since God demanded circumcision does the government have the right to do the same?

God demanded observance of the Sabbath. Does the state have the right to do the same.

Also - I never questioned the right of the State of Georgia to change their laws. They have that right, if I were a resident of Georgia I would strongly oppose it, as would be my right.

 

[HankD]

I still cannot accept that if God does it the government can do it.

You have this somewhat reversed C4K. All government is ordained of God.
Reminder:
Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
...
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

I don't believe that you are truly condoning the system of legalised slavery that existed in the US because God demanded slavery for debtors and captives.

No I am not, I am just drawing to your attention the fact that God did so and asking if you think God perpetrated evil when He did.

Which BTW C4K you did not answer.

Since God demanded circumcision does the government have the right to do the same?

Yes.

Do they demand it? No.

HankD

 

[liebeskind]

Originally posted by C4K:
I still cannot accept that if God does it the government can do it.

I don't believe that you are truly condoning the system of legalised slavery that existed in the US because God demanded slavery for debtors and captives.

Since God demanded circumcision does the government have the right to do the same?

God demanded observance of the Sabbath. Does the state have the right to do the same.

Also - I never questioned the right of the State of Georgia to change their laws. They have that right, if I were a resident of Georgia I would strongly oppose it, as would be my right.

Interesting!

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I think we are just missing each other here. As most know I am a great supporter of the principles of Romans 13.

On the slavery issue, God's slavery was based on debt or military captives, not on a man's race. God never pepertuates evil.

US slavery was based on the colour of a man's sin. That is sinful.

I think my view is clear from the last paragrah of my post above

Also - I never questioned the right of the State of Georgia to change their laws. They have that right, if I were a resident of Georgia I would strongly oppose it, as would be my right.

The point is that I do not think the execution of a child is right. Any more than the murder of children through abortion is right (although legal). Because babies in the womb were killed in Sodom and Gomorrah does that make abortion justifiable?

The question of this thread is not whether or not a state has the right to execute children, the question is "is it right to do so" - I say no.

 

[HankD]

The question of this thread is not whether or not a state has the right to execute children, the question is "is it right to do so" - I say no.

OK, I agree that it might not be right for me to get involved in legislation to allow it, but I would say, yes the state has that right because the theocracy of Israel whose constitution was written by God allowed and even commanded it.

The age of the child is not mentioned but it is probably older than 8 years old because :
Deuteronomy 21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

Also it requires the whole population of the males of the city (probably by consensus):

21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Nonetheless it is there in the Word of God.

Jesus told Pontius Pilate:
10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above

On the slavery issue, God's slavery was based on debt or military captives, not on a man's race. God never pepertuates evil.

C4K the phrase "God's slavery" IMO is an equivocation on your part. There is no such thing as "God's slavery" apart from agape love.

God certainly did perpetuate slavery just as He did divorce which he hates according to the full council of God.

Just as he allowed divorce because of "hardness of heart", so also slavery. In fact the only case against slavery even in the NT is perhaps the Book of Philemon.

It is evident that God hates slavery because of the Law of Jubilee.

We may not particulary like the severity of God and how He deals with flesh (and yes even His own children) but nonetheless it is there in the Word of God.

Personally, I don't see any point in prolonging this seeming disagreement and risking an occassion of the flesh (not from us of course!

).

You can have the last word to answer and I will bow out.

HankD

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Happy with the way things stand Hank!

I have really appreciated the spirit of our little discussion

 

[corinne]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by corinne:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Nope. As much as you would like to blame society or his mommy and daddy for him being a murderer, he is the one who put his hands around the girl's neck and murdered her, not his parents. Some kids are just evil and it has nothing to do with their parents. I know it is not common, but there are good parents out there who have evil kids. Unless you can prove that his parents sent him over there to kill that girl, they should not carry any guilt whatsoever. BTW, I would shoot the rotwieler, and not the owners.

Joseph Botwinick

If the child's sin is reason enough for you to put him to death, why would the sin of rape (or incest) resulting in a pregnancy not be erased (by a legal first trimester abortion)?

Corinne </font>[/QUOTE]The unborn baby did not commit rape or incest. The man (or boy) who commmited the rape / incest is the one who committed the crime and should be executed, IMO. That was a very weak argument. I would have expected a lot more from you.

Joseph Botwinick </font>[/QUOTE]Nothing justifies putting a child to death, whether he is a murderer or whether he is in the womb. Both are minors below a certain age (which varies from State to State).

What about a mother who is in danger of dying because of the fetus she is carrying. There are such medical examples which justify abortion when the mother's health is in danger. If abortion is forbidden and the mother dies, is the fetus responsible for its mother's death and should it be prosecuted for murder after it is born?

Corinne

 

[dianetavegia]

Corinne said: What about a mother who is in danger of dying because of the fetus she is carrying. There are such medical examples which justify abortion when the mother's health is in danger.

There are virtually no examples of this! Instead of aborting a baby, the child is delivered either vaginally or by c-section and every attempt is made to save the life of the child.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by corinne:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by corinne:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Nope. As much as you would like to blame society or his mommy and daddy for him being a murderer, he is the one who put his hands around the girl's neck and murdered her, not his parents. Some kids are just evil and it has nothing to do with their parents. I know it is not common, but there are good parents out there who have evil kids. Unless you can prove that his parents sent him over there to kill that girl, they should not carry any guilt whatsoever. BTW, I would shoot the rotwieler, and not the owners.

Joseph Botwinick

If the child's sin is reason enough for you to put him to death, why would the sin of rape (or incest) resulting in a pregnancy not be erased (by a legal first trimester abortion)?

Corinne </font>[/QUOTE]The unborn baby did not commit rape or incest. The man (or boy) who commmited the rape / incest is the one who committed the crime and should be executed, IMO. That was a very weak argument. I would have expected a lot more from you.

Joseph Botwinick </font>[/QUOTE]Nothing justifies putting a child to death, whether he is a murderer or whether he is in the womb. Both are minors below a certain age (which varies from State to State).

Corinne </font>[/QUOTE]That is your opinion. You are entitled to it, but I disagree. If someone committs murder and is convicted, they should be executes regardless of their age.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Bro. James Reed]

Corrine, let put forth an example.

A husband, wife, and their little baby are in a car. The car goes out of control and into a river. The husband is free and only has time to rescue one other person before the car goes under water.

Should he rescue his wife or should he rescue their baby? I don't know if you are a mother, but what would you say? Rescue yourself or rescue your child?

Anyone who has ever had an abortion should be 'fixed' so they can never have children. They obviously do not care about their children or they would never consider killing them, even to save their own life.

 

[Dragoon68]

We know from the bible that life begins long before final birth. Consider the story in related to:

Luke 1:41-44 - And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

John the Baptist was a cognizant human being before he was born. God "breathed" life into him at the moment of his conception and he grew from that point forward.

There is no "right" for a mother, a father, a doctor, or a judge to terminate the life of an unborn child. An act of abortion for the convenience of the parent or parents is a cold blooded murder, for the health or welfare of the mother it is a selfish choice of one life over another consummated by a murder, and for the alleged undoing of another sin such as rape or incest it is an even worse sin.

I've heard the arguments of "what would I do if I had to choose between person A and person B". Such arguments are designed to confuse the issue and to promote one side or the other by creating a dreadful situation with no apparent answer. It reminds me of:

1 Kings 3:23-25 - Then said the king, The one saith, This is my son that liveth, and thy son is the dead: and the other saith, Nay; but thy son is the dead, and my son is the living. And the king said, Bring me a sword. And they brought a sword before the king. And the king said, Divide the living child in two, and give half to the one, and half to the other.

The situation may indeed arise wherein a person must act quickly and decisively in favor or person A or person B but, at that instant, they are not making a choice to kill one rather than the other but, instead, are acting to save one with great hopes of also saving the other. Only God could be our rightful guide in such a situation and to Him we should leave the choices that need be made thinking not of ourselves but of what He desires.

Parents should humbly bear the burden of bringing up the children that God has given them regardless of the circumstances. That burden is insignificant to all the suffering endured upon this earth by so many and, indeed, far far less than that which our Lord took on Himself on our behalf.

Patrick