Death Penalty: My view

[canadyjd]

Do you think that Christ was an idealist?

Jesus is God. Any comparison to human ideology is inappropriate.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

While Russia still seems dictatorial today, they've supposedly renounced communism. I believe they were still trying to show the world they'd renounced when they had that trial, figuring that trial would show the world they'd become "democratic". But I'll agree that the US system is still better than theirs.

I must have missed the Russian government renouncing communism. Perhaps start a thread in politics.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

The passage does not say that the example was given for other believers to follow what Jesus did. The passage is saying that Paul is a pattern of how Jesus will bestow similar mercy unto salvation for all who will believe, just as Paul did.


1 Timothy 1:15-16

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first
Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering,
for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Paul was the first who became a pattern of the many upon whom Jesus would show forth all longsuffering . . .

So, you believe this passage is not talking about an example of mercy for other Christians to follow, but rather Jesus just wanted future Christians to know He can show mercy and save the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul, but He doesn’t want future Christians to change our own views toward the worst of sinners? That’s what you take away from this passage?

I disagree with that view in that it makes no sense in the context. Paul often spoke of salvation by grace. Why use these particular words if not to focus on how future believers should also view sinners.

But, we can disagree.

peace to you

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Jesus is God. Any comparison to human ideology is inappropriate.

peace to you

Jesus is both God and man. Your understanding of Gods nature is invalid.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

So, you believe this passage is not talking about an example of mercy for other Christians to follow, but rather Jesus just wanted future Christians to know He can show mercy and save the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul, but He doesn’t want future Christians to change our own views toward the worst of sinners? That’s what you take away from this passage?

I disagree with that view in that it makes no sense in the context. Paul often spoke of salvation by grace. Why use these particular words if not to focus on how future believers should also view sinners.

But, we can disagree.

peace to you

This passage does not have anything to do with Christians showing mercy to criminals who deserve to die for their crimes, etc. Showing such mercy is not a prerogative that God has given to any individuals. He has ordained government to have the role of righteously punishing evildoers.

In addition, I have already proven from Scripture that the apostle Paul, who wrote 1 Timothy 1:15-16, himself believed in the legitimacy of the death penalty:

Acts 25:11
For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Caesar.

In fact, Paul affirmed that he would not have refused to die had he actually been guilty of having "committed any thing worthy of death." If the right interpretation of 1 Tim. 1:15-16 were what you say it is, Paul would not have said what he said in Acts 25:11.

Instead, he would have said that regardless of whether I have or have not done something worthy of death, I do not deserve to die because no one deserves the death penalty, etc. But that is not what Paul said because Paul believed that the death penalty was a righteous punishment for those who deserve it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So, you believe this passage is not talking about an example of mercy for other Christians to follow, but rather Jesus just wanted future Christians to know He can show mercy and save the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul, but He doesn’t want future Christians to change our own views toward the worst of sinners? That’s what you take away from this passage?

I disagree with that view in that it makes no sense in the context. Paul often spoke of salvation by grace. Why use these particular words if not to focus on how future believers should also view sinners.

But, we can disagree.

peace to you

Future believers are sinners, there is no difference as Paul points out.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Jesus is both God and man. Your understanding of Gods nature is invalid.

Hebrews 2:17

 

[canadyjd]

This passage does not have anything to do with Christians showing mercy to criminals who deserve to die for their crimes, etc. Showing such mercy is not a prerogative that God has given to any individuals. He has ordained government to have the role of righteously punishing evildoers.

In addition, I have already proven from Scripture that the apostle Paul, who wrote 1 Timothy 1:15-16, himself believed in the legitimacy of the death penalty:

Acts 25:11
For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Caesar.

In fact, Paul affirmed that he would not have refused to die had he actually been guilty of having "committed any thing worthy of death." If the right interpretation of 1 Tim. 1:15-16 were what you say it is, Paul would not have said what he said in Acts 25:11.

Instead, he would have said that regardless of whether I have or have not done something worthy of death, I do not deserve to die because no one deserves the death penalty, etc. But that is not what Paul said because Paul believed that the death penalty was a righteous punishment for those who deserve it.

I have already stated God has given authority to governments to implement the death penalty.

I believe God had set a different standard for believers. God desires we show mercy to sinners, as He has shown mercy toward us.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Jesus is both God and man. Your understanding of Gods nature is invalid.

Says the man who advocates kidnapping, torture, mutilation and murder.

My understanding of God’s nature is just fine, thank you.

Peace to you

 

[Alcott]

It doesn’t change the command of Christ in 1 Timothy 1:15-16 to follow the example of Jesus and show mercy to the worst sinners, even murderers like Paul.

Revelation 18:6

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Says the man who advocates kidnapping, torture, mutilation and murder.

My understanding of God’s nature is just fine, thank you.

Peace to you

You are very confused. I actually advocate the execution of pathological child molesters while you would allow them more opportunity to continue on in their sick perversions. Apparently you have little or no experience with the case files of these perverts. Perhaps it would be wise to actually go out there, interview a few people whose lives have been destroyed by these creeps before you open your mouth.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I believe God had set a different standard for believers. God desires we show mercy to sinners, as He has shown mercy toward us.

peace to you

You have to Bible to support what you believe. Your use of 1 Tim. 1:16 to set forth these notions is incorrect.

There are other passages that do support holding the view that God desires that believers be merciful, but those other passages, like 1 Tim. 1:16, do not teach that God wants us to be against governmental use of the death penalty. There are no passages in Scripture that teach that believers should be against the righteous use of the death penalty by government authorities.

 

[robycop3]

I must have missed the Russian government renouncing communism. Perhaps start a thread in politics.

peace to you

Look back to world events of 1991.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

To say that pedophiles don't change is to deny the change of heart that Christ performs at the moment of salvation. The solution is to evangelize them and every other criminal.

Then, if they are released and break into your house to harm your children, you shoot them dead .

Pedophiles have their particular sin and the rest of us have our own sin. We're no better than they are and are all equally condemned to Hell without Christ.

BTW, their particular sin is to abuse children... my children, your children, your neighbors children. They do not discriminate. And they are like the COVID virus IE, everywhere. So the local church or school catches one of these child abusers and throws him in prison for two years....well, not so. Prisons are overcrowded so he has been nice while in here, so let’s let him out but he has to register as a child molester. Now it becomes your job to check that register and quite often. He isn’t active in your community but maybe he goes 30 miles away and becomes active in the Boy Scouts and coaches a little league baseball team. Or maybe he becomes a volunteer youth pastor at a small Baptist church that really could use the help. As a side note, when the wife and I were visiting churches in the area, the youth minister was really interested in my son... so much so that he creeped me out and we didn’t join. Turns out both the youth guy and the pastor were asked to leave, hmmm.

Anyway, let’s cut this short, how do you police this knowing that they are living in most every community in America? And many are both 1st time and second second time offenders. Now I originally come from a Roman Catholic background and boy have I got stories. One guy I know comes from a Polish family and is an active homosexual, He researched the RC church and suggested to me that that organization is very homosexual and pedofile active and they teach a gay subculture that goes from parish priest right up to bishops and archbishops and then cardinals. I didn’t ask about popes.

So once again, and with a major Christian church organization coming out of the closet and advocating homosexual lifestyle as OK, what do you tell and teach your kids... and how do you protect them from deviants cause that’s what they are... “Queer” to be frank with you.

Your a young guy with a growing family... you must iron this out with your wife in discussion and decide your course in teaching Godly values.

 

[37818]

Jesus makes reference to the OT law requiring two or three witnesses. They had the two or three witnesses there to make the allegation.

Where in Jesus recorded ministry did Jesus do this?

Jesus Himself at lest once in His recorded ministry referred directly to a death penalty in the Law, ". . . that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. . . ." Matthew 15:4, Mark 7:10.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

 

[canadyjd]

You are very confused. I actually advocate the execution of pathological child molesters while you would allow them more opportunity to continue on in their sick perversions. Apparently you have little or no experience with the case files of these perverts. Perhaps it would be wise to actually go out there, interview a few people whose lives have been destroyed by these creeps before you open your mouth.

I never said anything about giving pedophiles “more opportunity” to molest children. that is an outrageous lie.

Start a thread about appropriate sentences for pedophiles if you want. This thread is about the death penalty.

And I’m not confused. You advocated kidnapping, torture, mutilation and murder in post #21. You said it. Own it, or apologize.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

You have to Bible to support what you believe. Your use of 1 Tim. 1:16 to set forth these notions is incorrect.

There are other passages that do support holding the view that God desires that believers be merciful, but those other passages, like 1 Tim. 1:16, do not teach that God wants us to be against governmental use of the death penalty. There are no passages in Scripture that teach that believers should be against the righteous use of the death penalty by government authorities.

You are making an argument from silence.

The argument goes… God has given Governments the power of execution, and God never said we should oppose the governments use of the death penalty, therefore Christians should support the death penalty.

God often uses non-believers and ungodly governments to accomplish His plans.

God does not need Christians to support the death penalty to accomplish His goals. In fact, I believe God has commanded Christians to show mercy instead.

To the extent Christians in the USA have the opportunity to be involved in a judicial process that may include the death penalty it is my opinion they should not support the death penalty.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Where in Jesus recorded ministry did Jesus do this?

Jesus Himself at lest once in His recorded ministry referred directly to a death penalty in the Law, ". . . that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. . . ." Matthew 15:4, Mark 7:10.

The reference to OT law concerning the implementation of the death penalty by Jesus is John 8.

peace to you

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

You are making an argument from silence.

The argument goes… God has given Governments the power of execution, and God never said we should oppose the governments use of the death penalty, therefore Christians should support the death penalty.

God often uses non-believers and ungodly governments to accomplish His plans.

God does not need Christians to support the death penalty to accomplish His goals. In fact, I believe God has commanded Christians to show mercy instead.

To the extent Christians in the USA have the opportunity to be involved in a judicial process that may include the death penalty it is my opinion they should not support the death penalty.

peace to you

Your opinion and teaching are unbiblical. I have already shown that there is no command from God for Christians to show mercy instead of supporting the death penalty.

Christians who resist or seek to undermine the government's divinely ordained righteous exaction of the death penalty oppose God and will reap the consequences.

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Of all people, Christians should be the foremost to uphold and support their government when they righteously do what God has appointed them to do when they execute His wrath on those who do evil.