Deception and OSAS

[Reformed in WA]

2 Pet 3:7 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

2 Pet 2:20-22 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

2 Pet 2:17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved

Luke 8:13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away

Matt 24:10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another.

Heb 6:4-8 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

John 6:66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.

2 John 1:9-11 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

Heb 10:26-29 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

Where in all your quotes does it say that those who go back to their worldly ways were saved. Christ told us there are many tares among the wheat. 1 John 2:19: They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

None of the passages you name talk about believers who are given the power to good works through the Spirit of God. They are talking about those who profess yet do not do good works. In fact all those here that believe someone can lose their justification point to a single verse in the Bible that state that. I can point to many that state that not a single entity can take it away once given.

Also while you are at it explain how Christ's sacrifice is so ineffectual that who God chooses for salvation isn't saved forever? How someone who is saved by faith alone can then by their own works lose it? Or do you side with Rome and say God needs your help? The arrogance of that stand is beyond me.

 

[Reformed in WA]

Ok Context. In Hebrews:
A warning to Christians that they can be lead away from the living God. Yes its to believers to maintain their faith. Unless you're saying that Christians after Justification do not sin or have sinful thought?. Surely your not saying this? The warning is justly taken.

to your second response: the scripture shows that it is indeed believers that need to maintain their faith lest they fall away and loose it. It is rather clear that they are believers that then can be lead away again.

to your last reponse: context
Preaching will no longer be an option but look how paul ends this thought that he maintained his faith and has kept it until the end. So the first part is part of this thought in that you must maintain even as Paul did. Why maintain? So as not to fall away and loose your gift.

Do you actually believe that everyone in your church is a saved person? Or do you not think there are tares among you. No where in any of your responses have you shown clear biblical evidence of someone who God has chosen that has lost his election. There are a few out there like the FV who believe this and are in peril from their preaching a different gospel.

 

[Reformed in WA]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinkingstuff
Hebrews 3:12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God


HP: It is amazing to me all the rhetoric about context and to ‘whom something is addressed,’ but if the truth runs contrary to ones presuppositions, context and to whom it is addressed goes out the window in a heart beat. Sad but true.

“TAKE CARE, BROTHERS,” I could believe it only pertains to men before I could accept the conjecture Ann sets forth.

So you are saying that if you cherry pick you passages to prove your man made theology that's ok but if Ann quotes things in context and uses a historical hermeneutic then she is wrong? Ooooooooooooooooook NOT!

We are to examine everything by the Word of God the way he inspired it to be written by paying attention to who was being talked about and what was said in context. That is what Paul meant by renewing our mind and capturing every thought for Christ.

 

[Reformed in WA]

HP: Ann, the warning of the possibility is starring you in the face. If you will not believe the abundant and plain admonishment of God’s Word, what else could one possibly have to offer?

You should examine yourself in the mirror. You have not given a shred of biblical evidence other than quoting verses out of context to bolster your false belief.

 

[Reformed in WA]

What if one just disobeyed 'one' little time, eating just one little tincy wincy bit out of a forbidden piece of fruit, having been lead astray by their spouse, or so it was claimed? How utterly wicked was that? Somehow God must look at the end of rebellion, not just the beginning. Sin is like a cancer. It festers and always grows in size if left unchecked.

What does Scripture say? Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

That person you talk about condemned us all to death. That person was under a law based covenant. Do this and you live disobey and you die. But Christ's gospel is different. If you believe in a works based salvation then you sir are preaching a different gospel and I will pray for the Lord to have mercy on you. That the Holy Spirit will take away your scales and unplug your ears.

 

[Reformed in WA]

Then why did Paul strive. And near the end he exults in that he kept the faith to the very end? Could it be that possibly that the assurance is that indeed if you do the father's will his promises are faithful its assured so that you're not waisting your time. For instance let me use Paul's example of a race. To get my meaning across better lets say its the 100 meter dash. your at the starting point and .... Bang! The gun goes off. Now Paul says he runs the race with out looking back and keeps his mind focused on the goal until he reaches the end and recieves the prize. But what if you don't run at all? what if you never cross the finish line? Do you recieve the prize that his awaiting and secure for you? You can be assured that if you actually run the race you will receive your reward but if you start and stop what prize is there for you?

Paul used the race metaphor because the Greeks were familiar with the Olympics. The runners of the race are invited. By who? God before the foundation of the world. Can they run outside their lanes on the way to the finish? Certainly only one ran the race perfectly; Christ. But all those invited will finish, some will finish faster and better than others. We lay our treasures up in Heaven. But all who are called His stay His. Christ says He does not lose any.

 

[Reformed in WA]

Allan, you certainly have a lot of good things to say, and I mean that. How is your understanding of the little word 'if?'

Joh 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Mt 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Mt 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Ro 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

…just to list a few conditional passages.

Knowing this is pretty fruitless and how you don't care that you take things out of context, I am still given the energy to dispute you.

You quote part of John 8:31 why? because if you quote the whole passage of John 8:31-59 it would disprove your point. Jesus is telling Jews who DON'T believe in Him what they must do to be saved but they instead are relying on their birth and their works to save them. Hmmm remind you of anyone?

You then turn to Heb 10:38 which is also taken out of context. Here the writer is talking about people who have received the hearing of the gospel but continue to sin. Heb10:21.

Time after time your arguments are simply taken out of context and have no meaning other than the man made gospel you try to put into them. Please go to a church where you will hear the whole Word of God not just what deceitful wolves in sheep's clothing have taught you.

 

[Reformed in WA]

1. Shipwreck of Faith. 1Tim 1:19
2. Fallen From Grace - severed from Christ Gal 5:4
3. Forgiveness revoked - Matt 18
4. Removed from Christ and burned John 15
5. Removed from Christ (Rom 11) but "he is able to graft them in again IF they do not continue in unbelief" Romans 11:23

An then of course - even Adam - Created perfect did not need to be "uncreated" to fall and become "lost".

The "first you must be uncreated to fall" argument does not work in scripture.



Take it up with Paul.

in Christ,

Bob

None of the passages you use point to a believer they point simply to those who God has shown mercy on and rebuked that mercy.

 

[Reformed in WA]

Good works cannot prove regeneration, lost people do good works, some more than the saved.

Lost people can make very good neighbors as well.

Working to control the sin nature is something you find lost people doing as well because we all, both saved and lost, have a sin nature that must be controled lest we face society's consequences.

Here is the only test to know if you have been saved....."The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:" (Ro 8:16)

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" (Jo 10:27)

It is what God has done for you, placing His eternal seal within you.

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." (Eph 4:30)

:jesus:

The Lost do not even recognize sin so how can they grieve over it? Only the elect do this.

 

[Amy.G]

The Lost do not even recognize sin so how can they grieve over it? Only the elect do this.

Of course they do. That's why they go to God for forgiveness and salvation. I sure did grieve over my sin and my hopelessness in it. I knew the only way out was Jesus.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Of course they do. That's why they go to God for forgiveness and salvation. I sure did grieve over my sin and my hopelessness in it. I knew the only way out was Jesus.

WoW Amy...you gave me flaskbacks to my conversion.raying:

 

[Reformed in WA]

Of course they do. That's why they go to God for forgiveness and salvation. I sure did grieve over my sin and my hopelessness in it. I knew the only way out was Jesus.

You are right, I should have said the non-elect as we are all lost at one time.

 

[eightball]

Simply put, "How can a new creature/Creation in Christ Jesus become "uncreated" and "spit" out of Christ Jesus.

When we are trully saved, there is a spiritual transformation within us done by God Almighty. Galatians 2:20 succinctly reveals that the Old Man is dead...........the NIV is weak in this area and refers to the Old Man or Old Nature as the "Flesh". This makes it appear or seem as though the "saved" person now has two distinct identities within, "the old Man and the new Man" or "The old adamic nature and the new Adamic nature". This indeed would result in soulically induced Schizophenia.

When Paul said, (present tense) he died and was buried and raised up with Christ, Paul old Adamic nature was crucified with and in Christ, and left behind, and the new nature empowered by the H.S. or Spirit of Christ now resides. Old things pass away.

What the Christian contends with as Paul said so clearly in Romans 7 is the Power of Sin that has access to us through our unredeemed flesh. That flesh will be disposed-of when we die, and take up new ressurrection bodies.

Paul said that the things he desired to do(that's his new nature in Christ) were at war with the thoughts or pulls to do otherwise; that's the power of sin that still pounds away at true believers. Only now we have a choice, to go with the flesh, or with the H.S., and or God's righteous truth.

Yes, I'm a "one naturist", and will stand strong against any flak from dual naturists. I refuse to accept that our battle is with two natures, an old lost one and a new Christ empowered one. That is clinical Schizophrenia.

Our war is with the flesh, and our flesh is an avenue for sin, and Satan to work on us.

Romans 12 clearly reveals that our minds still have the old programming from when we were "old nature" bound, and lived. It must be purged by immersing ourselves in God's Word. Romans 10:17 "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.".

The more that we immerse ourselves , and learn to abide in God's truths the less that the power of sin and satan can create an "Oh wretched man that I am" situation. The conflct stops dead at the foot of God's truth..........debate ended!

 

[annsni]

Galatians 2:20 succinctly reveals that the Old Man is dead...........the NIV is weak in this area and refers to the Old Man or Old Nature as the "Flesh". This makes it appear or seem as though the "saved" person now has two distinct identities within, "the old Man and the new Man" or "The old adamic nature and the new Adamic nature". This indeed would result in soulically induced Schizophenia.

Actually, the NIV uses the term "body". It is the KJV that uses "flesh". It is also the NIV that uses "sin nature" in Romans 8 whereas the KJV uses "flesh".

 

[eightball]

Actually, the NIV uses the term "body". It is the KJV that uses "flesh". It is also the NIV that uses "sin nature" in Romans 8 whereas the KJV uses "flesh".

Possibly I wasn't clear, or I made a mistake in my explanation. In fact I did explain the sinful nature/flesh difference incorrectly. I assigned the one noun and the other action verb to the wrong translations. My bad.

NIV Romans 8:8

Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

NASB Romans 8:8

and those who are in the flesh cannot please God

KJV Romans 8:8

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

******
The NIV incorrectly substitutes or translates "the flesh" as "Sinful Nature".

To some this may seem very indistinct or non-important, but it really isn't, as it creates a "two-natured" Christian, versus a one natured unredeemed individual. Now the new Christian carries a dual nature.......and old Adamic sinful nature, and a new Christ/Adamic nature. A "nature" is a total soulical identity. The NIV has created a schizoidal condition for the Christian, if we are to accept it's translation. So the dualist see Romans 7 as a battle between two natures. That is indeed novel, and something that is very difficult to perceive as a gift from God through Jesus Christ. Thankfully the greek breakdown points to "flesh" as the proper translation and not "sinful nature" of the NIV. The KJV and NASB both use "flesh", and correctly-so IMO.

The NIV puts "sinful nature" in place of "the flesh". "The flesh is not a nature but a "condition" of the soul.

A Christian has a choice to live in the "flesh" or in the "Spirit".

Keep in mind that Ephesians clearly says that we are "new creatures/creations" in Christ Jesus. We have a new identity or significance to your beings/lives because the Spirit of Christ indwells our souls.

Galatians says that a "death" happened to Paul, and that goes for all true believers or saved. What died? Paul is certainly alive when he wrote Galatians 2:20.

Paul has been relieved of his post-salvation Adamic life/nature, and has a new nature. He is still "Paul" but he is a "new" Paul, who's soul has been re-energized by the H.S.'s arrival and residency.

Paul, as with all believers was co-crucified, co-buried, co-raised up in Christ Jesus. How? Because the Spirit of Christ or the very nature of Christ or the New Adamic life has now replaced that Old Adamic life.

Yet Paul talks about the "wretched man I am" in Romans chapter 7. Paul was saved and had that new nature of Christ/H.S. indwelling. So what was the battle? Paul's as with our bodies is still of the old unredeemed flesh. Our minds/brains still have the old "programming" of our past Adamic or Old Man's life. Memories are not crucified. The old proclivity or sinful/Adamic nature was crucified.

So now our war is with the power of sin that has access to our souls through our unredeemed fleshly condition. Yet we now have a "choice" that we hadn't before salvation. The battle is now between "us" and "Christ" for ascendency in our souls. Who will sit upon the throne of our souls. We have the choice. Will be accept Christ as our Saviour yet not go as far as to give Him Lordship?

Will Christ be daily crowned "King" which means He is Lord over our whole day and on till we breath our last on this terrestrial ball called earth? Or will He be just our Saviour and take a small seat beside the resident throne in our soul. I.E. will "self" or "us" be on the throne?

The NIV makes most grevious error when it uses "sinful nature" in place of "flesh", as this negates the spirit of Galatians 2:20.

Galatians 2:20 is Paul's explanation of what happened to the "old unsaved, unredeemed, old Adamic natured" Paul.

Christ's life has no beginning nor end........It is a live of eternity past, present, future. When Paul and all believers received Christ's Spirit/life, we were placed into that eternally past/present/future life, that has no beginning nor end. That is why we are are not seated in the heavenlies for the future after physical, earthly death, but our seated, "now". Just look at the tense.......We are now seated in the heavenlies, because we have received Jesus' crucified, buried, but really importantly, ressurrected, and "ascended to the right hand of His Father's" life.
******

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said
Originally Posted by BobRyan
1. Shipwreck of Faith. 1Tim 1:19
2. Fallen From Grace - severed from Christ Gal 5:4
3. Forgiveness revoked - Matt 18
4. Removed from Christ and burned John 15
5. Removed from Christ (Rom 11) but "he is able to graft them in again IF they do not continue in unbelief" Romans 11:23

An then of course - even Adam - Created perfect did not need to be "uncreated" to fall and become "lost".

The "first you must be uncreated to fall" argument does not work in scripture.

None of the passages you use point to a believer they point simply to those who God has shown mercy on and rebuked that mercy.

1. Shipwreck of Faith. 1Tim 1:19 -- you cannot shipwreck what you do not have in tact.

2. Fallen From Grace - severed from Christ Gal 5:4. Being under grace is never the condition of the lost.

3. Forgiveness revoked - Matt 18. Being fully forgiven is not the state of the lost -- but rather of the saved.

4. Removed from Christ and burned John 15. Those branches "IN ME" are removed if they do not bear fruit. There is no text speaking of "lost IN ME".

5. Removed from Christ (Rom 11) but "he is able to graft them in again IF they do not continue in unbelief" Romans 11:23

In Romans 11 Paul says "YOU STAND only by your faith" and argues that we should persevere in that -- for "IF He did not spare them neither will he spare you". Paul is not arguing that the lost are to "persevere in being lost".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

1. Shipwreck of Faith. 1Tim 1:19 -- you cannot shipwreck what you do not have in tact.

2. Fallen From Grace - severed from Christ Gal 5:4. Being under grace is never the condition of the lost.

3. Forgiveness revoked - Matt 18. Being fully forgiven is not the state of the lost -- but rather of the saved.

4. Removed from Christ and burned John 15. Those branches "IN ME" are removed if they do not bear fruit. There is no text speaking of "lost IN ME".

5. Removed from Christ (Rom 11) but "he is able to graft them in again IF they do not continue in unbelief" Romans 11:23

In Romans 11 Paul says "YOU STAND only by your faith" and argues that we should persevere in that -- for "IF He did not spare them neither will he spare you". Paul is not arguing that the lost are to "persevere in being lost".

in Christ,

Bob

Why do you bring up old threads Bob.
BTW, its good to hear from you again.
But these verses have already been answered and refuted.
Why do you want to go through them all over again, and re-hash the same thing over and over again.

 

[BobRyan]

Glad to be back.

My post above was from this thread.

I like bringing up points that seem to have no compelling answer. I call them the "choke points" of the argument where the other side can certainly respond with a "I don't like to look at those texts" form of response - but is limited to not much else by way of substantive answer to the points raised.

When that happens -- I save off the points that resulted in that stalled response.

My argument is never that my posts would convince the one who posts in opposition to my views, not when it comes to Catholic topics, or evolutionist topics or Calvinist topics or OSAS topics ... etc. Because "the rule" is that the "other guy" never changes his view. I post the information so that the objective unbiased reader can see the point and then the lack of substantive response.

So as you can imagine -- I am careful to only bring up those scenarios that always result in a comparison that goes in my favor - as in the case above

But I never expect those who are publically posting against my view (no matter what the subject) to post "o.k I give up -- I have no answer". And I think the unbiased objective reader knows that such will seldom ever be the case no matter if the topic is evolution, or the RCC, or accepting all 66 books of the Bible, or ... even this topic.

in Christ,

Bob