Decisional Regeneration

[lbaker]

"God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree."

RB,

Why do you suddenly change from speaking modern English to Elizabethan English when you begin theologizing?

Les

 

[lbaker]

That is a very descriptive term: decisional regeneration.

And it does indeed match up well with Baptismal regeneration.

THe free willers still can't/won't answer the "why" do some believe and others do not.

That should be obvious. Some folks don't want to give up a sinful lifestyle, some are convinced there is no God, some think they are just pretty good old boys (or gals) and that ought to be good enough, some believe in a false god or philosophy, some don't want to humble themselves - this list could go on forever, but I think I made my point.

Les

 

[Dale-c]

lbaker,

I do agree with your statement on the surface.
That of course is the reason that many do not believe.
All who do not believe are too proud etc to believe.

The question is:
Why are you more humble so that you believe and others don't?

Why do some not want to give up the lifestyle?


We would ALL choose sin over God if left to our own will and nature.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I have been labeled hyper-Calvinist on this board, and there be some here who have hinted at me being outright heretical, but for the life of me, I cannot understand how God can glory in creating Adam and decreeing, that is foreordaining, in other words, setting events into motion, in which Adam will finally and without fail sin against Him, so that He will have to banish Adam from the garden, and in turn impute upon every one of Adam's descendant Adam's sin, and cause everyone to be born fallen, corrupt, and depraved, necessitating His putting on the form of a slave, and taking upon Himself the punishment of those whom He designed to save from eternity past, thru a covenant with Himself, delighting in His own death in the body of His eternal Son, in order for Him to have a people unto Himself who will praise His riches in mercy for generations ?

I cannot understand that. I do not see Scripture that makes God at once both the author and punisher of sin in light of such Scriptures as pointed out by those on this board, such as Scriptures that state that He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked !!

For Him to foreordain Adam's fall and sin, and pass on this depravity to others, and then say that He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, makes Him a HYPOCRITE !

Please do not justify such monstrous doctrine with pat references to God's "mysterious" ways and God's sovereignty (which no one denies).

I believe that, although God foresaw and foreknew that Adam will fall, it was not because He had set in motion certain events to transpire that will ensure Adam's fall.

I believe that the reason Adam fell, was because "dust thou art", that is, he was taken from dust, from the earth, although created perfect and without sin, until his predisposition to sin, bore witness to God's holiness, being the only One in this entire Universe, which He brought into existence, that was self-existent, therefore absolutely pure and holy.

And Pinoy, it is biblical to say that God's ways (decrees and eternal counsel) are past finding out, yet glorify Him for His work. If we see in Scripture that God ordains all things according to His will, and yet cannot comprehend how such sovereignty interacts with evil, then reckon your understanding weak, that God is good, and affirm the teaching of Scripture.

Further more, I dare not proceed at this point.

I do not mean to add any persusaion by saying I can sympathize with your philosophical struggles over the abosolute sovereignty of God. I had them too.

However, what I am reading in your response (and I mean no offence) speaks more to your inability to understand than the truth of God as it is in Christ Jesus and revealed in Holy Scripture. B.H. Carroll, a great old time southern Baptist preacher once wrote, "Let faith apprehend what the understanding may not comprehend" (may not be an exact quote)

What this means is that there are going to be truths of God that are taught in Scripture that you may not understand, and may never understand. But do not let your inability to comprehend prevent you from accepting by faith the truth of God.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

RB,

Why do you suddenly change from speaking modern English to Elizabethan English when you begin theologizing?

Les

Les,

In my responses I am using the my statement of faith, the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith to help in my explainations. So I am quoting something 318 years old.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Another classic line of misrepresentation courtesy of our high-flyin' friend SP . In his garbled world of interpretation he said : " ... He violently has to snatch the elect" from their natural course in life to save them." Hmmm , what Calvinist has uttered this stupidity ? O , that's right . It came from the mind of SP !

If intellectual honesty and truth were a large part of the opponents to the grace of God I might have more respect for them.

 

[lbaker]

The question is:
Why are you more humble so that you believe and others don't?

Why do some not want to give up the lifestyle?

The answer is:

The same reason some folks rob, cheat, and murder, vote Democrat, drive Fords, hate football, love golf, cheat on their spouse, don't like huntin' and fishin', and do all kinds of things - free will.

We are free to make poor (IMHO) choices.

Les

 

[lbaker]

Les,

In my responses I am using the my statement of faith, the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith to help in my explainations. So I am quoting something 318 years old.

I figured it was something like that. I was trying to make a joke.

Les

 

[Brother Bob]

The question is:
Why are you more humble so that you believe and others don't?

Why do some not want to give up the lifestyle?

You could answer this until you turned blue in the face, and it would not be accepted. It is an old tatic taught to the Calvinist when in debate with a non-cal.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

The answer is:

The same reason some folks rob, cheat, and murder, vote Democrat, drive Fords, hate football, love golf, cheat on their spouse, don't like huntin' and fishin', and do all kinds of things - free will.

We are free to make poor (IMHO) choices.

Les

Have you ever seen anyone make a free-will choice contrary to their desires?

 

[Brother Bob]

Have you ever seen anyone make a free-will choice contrary to their desires?

You ever listen to George Jones, "we have choices". I think it is a pretty good song. If you come to a dark alley, you have a choice whether to go down that dark alley, or walk in the light.

 

[lbaker]

Have you ever seen anyone make a free-will choice contrary to their desires?

Sure, like when my wife (Melinda) and I get up and go to work in the morning. My desire is to keep rolling over and hitting the snooze button, or throw the stinkin' clock out the window, but I choose to get on up and start getting ready. (and I'm the "good" one)

Les

 

[Dale-c]

You could answer this until you turned blue in the face, and it would not be accepted. It is an old tatic taught to the Calvinist when in debate with a non-cal.

Bob, I have never been taught "tactics" to defend calvinism
I was taught to denounce it. I was taught to mock it. I was taught it was false teaching.

BUt God would not let me go. He kept after me until I admitted He was right and I was wrong!

 

[webdog]

BUt God would not let me go. He kept after me until I admitted He was right and I was wrong!

So you admit you are wrong?

 

[Amy.G]

Have you ever seen anyone make a free-will choice contrary to their desires?

I think you asked the wrong question there, RB. :tongue3:

We (as Christians especially) make free-will choices everyday that go against our desires.

I have nursed both my parents through years and years of cancer, heart disease and many, many major surgeries. They were both in the hospital at the same time at one point. During this time I had a young son that I had to leave for days at a time and drive 2 hours to the hospital to stay with my mother because my dad was too sick to be with her. My "desires" were to be with my son and my husband but being an only child I had to go when I was needed. My dad passed away 5 years ago, but my mother now lives with us because of her poor health.
I could go on and on about my son's teenage years when he was sooo horribly rebellious and tell you all kinds of "desires" that I had at the time that are definitely not Godly, but he's still alive :laugh: thanks to God!
So, yeah we can set our own desires aside for the needs of others. How do I know this is my own free will doing this? Because sometimes I don't set my desires aside. Sometimes I do things out of selfishness and I am ashamed to say so, but God always forgives. And even when I ask forgiveness, it's of my own free will to do so.

 

[webdog]

Have you ever seen anyone make a free-will choice contrary to their desires?

...every day when I go to work

 

[Bob Alkire]

Bob, I have never been taught "tactics" to defend calvinism
I was taught to denounce it. I was taught to mock it. I was taught it was false teaching.

But God would not let me go. He kept after me until I admitted He was right and I was wrong!

Dale I feel God led me the other way. I was reared in a home and went to a church that taught calvinism every day. I went to a seminary that was Calvinistic and Presbyterian.

I think where we differ, is the mechanics of salvation, I think God knew who would accept and reject his offer of salvation, but man must use his volition to accept or reject the offer, if man can't use his volition, there was no offer. We only know in part while on earth and we both can quote Scripture to prove our point. As A. W. Tozer said, God dwells in eternity and time in God and man in time, so ther is much we don't know.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

You ever listen to George Jones, "we have choices". I think it is a pretty good song. If you come to a dark alley, you have a choice whether to go down that dark alley, or walk in the light.

My question was sincere, not rhetorical. But to answer the question with a question is a way not to answer a question. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I think you asked the wrong question there, RB. :tongue3:

We (as Christians especially) make free-will choices everyday that go against our desires.

I have nursed both my parents through years and years of cancer, heart disease and many, many major surgeries. They were both in the hospital at the same time at one point. During this time I had a young son that I had to leave for days at a time and drive 2 hours to the hospital to stay with my mother because my dad was too sick to be with her. My "desires" were to be with my son and my husband but being an only child I had to go when I was needed. My dad passed away 5 years ago, but my mother now lives with us because of her poor health.
I could go on and on about my son's teenage years when he was sooo horribly rebellious and tell you all kinds of "desires" that I had at the time that are definitely not Godly, but he's still alive :laugh: thanks to God!
So, yeah we can set our own desires aside for the needs of others. How do I know this is my own free will doing this? Because sometimes I don't set my desires aside. Sometimes I do things out of selfishness and I am ashamed to say so, but God always forgives. And even when I ask forgiveness, it's of my own free will to do so.

Thanks for a reply. What this discussion will get into, and the nature of the question, is to begin to cause us all to think of the nature of the will. This subject is, in my opinion, highly philosophical, but worthy of study and understanding.

I submit, before giving my reasons, that it is IMPOSSIBLE for someone to do anythign contrary to their own desire. And what is the will? Is it not "that which the mind chooses anything" ? "The faculty of the will, is that power, or principle of mind, by which it is capable of choosing: an act of the will is the same as an act of choosing or choice." -Edwards.

What you have described in saying that your will and desire can run counter to one another is in-step with John Locke's philosophy on the will,

“The Will is perfectly distinguished from desire; which in the very same action may have quite contrary tendency from that which our wills sets us upon. A man, says he, whom I cannot deny, may oblige me to use persuasions to another, which, at the same time I am speaking, I may wish not prevail on him. In this case, it is plain the Will and Desire run counter.”

I disagree with this. A man nevers wills contrary to his desires. In your example, your setting aside your own needs and wants, and so choosing to do what you did, shows that your will still followed your desire and that was to do what you believed to be right and good. You were faced with choices and had to choose, but still chose according to your desire or preference.

While Jonathan Edwards is hard to understand, he is quite right in regards to Locke's reasoning:

That the words, though they tend to persuade, should not be effectual to that end, his Will is not contrary to this; he does not will that they should be effectual, but rather wills that they should not, as he desires. In order to prove that the Will and Desire may run counter, it should be shown that they may be contrary one to the other in the same thing, or with respect to the very same object of Will or Desire: but here the objects are two; and in each, taken by themselves, the Will and Desire agree.

 

[TCGreek]

Bob, I have never been taught "tactics" to defend calvinism
I was taught to denounce it. I was taught to mock it. I was taught it was false teaching.

BUt God would not let me go. He kept after me until I admitted He was right and I was wrong!

I too was taught to debunk Calvinism, but it eventually debunked me.