Decisional Regeneration

[ReformedBaptist]

It is still poor Nic, regardless of whether it's "do" or "be".

Your scenario has Jesus more or less telling Nic "unless this happens to you, guess what - you get burned to death over and over forever, and what's even more awesome - you have absolutely NO control over whether it happens or not - hahahahahahahahahahaha!"

I just can't see Jesus being that cold.

It's not just poor Nic, its poor sinners! Let the truth of God in this manner drive them to despair and a sensibility of their utter helplessness to save themselves. And let them call upon the Lord with all their hearts.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

1. The Calvinist does not deny human responsibility, contrary to how others have portrayed us.

Okay, maybe we can explore this for a bit.

How can Nic be responsible for being born again when he has no control over it and must simply "let it be"?

Let me act like Brother Bob, I am learning from him. "How can a man be commanded by God to keep the Law, but not be able to?"

Same idea. And the same answer. Man's inability to obey God does not nullify God's authority to command obeidence, repentance, and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[TCGreek]

1. The Calvinist does not deny human responsibility, contrary to how others have portrayed us.

Okay, maybe we can explore this for a bit.

How can Nic be responsible for being born again when he has no control over it and must simply "let it be"?

1. Neither am I saying that Nic was responsible for being born again. I was simply anticipating a common detraction, but I guess I was wrong.

2. No one is responsible for his own physical birth, likewise no one is responsible for his newbirth.

3. Our newbirth is wholly generated by God (1 Pet 1:3).

 

[lbaker]

It's not just poor Nic, its poor sinners! Let the truth of God in this manner drive them to despair and a sensibility of their utter helplessness to save themselves. And let them call upon the Lord with all their hearts.

...for all the good it will do them if they aren't among the elect, right?

 

[Amy.G]

"How can a man be commanded by God to keep the Law, but not be able to?"

That is an excellent question. Let's explore that as well.

 

[lbaker]

1. The Calvinist does not deny human responsibility, contrary to how others have portrayed us.

1. Neither am I saying that Nic was responsible for being born again. I was simply anticipating a common detraction, but I guess I was wrong.

2. No one is responsible for his own physical birth, likewise no one is responsible for his newbirth.

3. Our newbirth is wholly generated by God (1 Pet 1:3).

LOL - So now we're not responsible? Which is it? Make up your mind which side of the argument you're on.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

...for all the good it will do them if they aren't among the elect, right?

Show me a single sinner who wished to live in heaven, be free of his sin and self-pleasure.

I have never met one. They are quite happy with their own religion or non-religion, they delight in their sins, indeed, they love darkness more than the light.

Speak to them of heaven and they sneer. Not Allah's heaven which is full of immorality and self-indulgence. But a heaven where God's glory is supreme, wherein righteousness dwells and no unclean thing dwells in it. They will at once be disgusted with your heaven, either because they cannot be the center of it, or else they cannot indulge their fleshly passions there.

I am not impressed by a man who wishes for Jesus in order that he may escape hell, if he is in someway terrified by it. Even a natural man fears punishment. I am impressed by a man who longs for heaven that he may escape sin and satan and worship Jesus Christ in the full purity of holiness and glorification.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

LOL - So now we're not responsible? Which is it? Make up your mind which side of the argument you're on.

He said the same thing.

 

[TCGreek]

LOL - So now we're not responsible? Which is it? Make up your mind which side of the argument you're on.

My comment on human responsibilty, as I said, was an attempt to answer a common detraction. I was not saying, at any time, that Nic could have contributed to his newbirth. I don't believe he could have or anyone else for that matter. I hope that helps.

 

[Amy.G]

2. No one is responsible for his own physical birth, likewise no one is responsible for his newbirth.

3. Our newbirth is wholly generated by God (1 Pet 1:3).

I don't think there is anyone who would disagree with this. Salvation is of the Lord, plain and simple.

But, we are responsible for accepting the offer of salvation, for responding to the call. You must believe.

I believe God extends mercy to all. The rain falls on the just and the unjust.


1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen
1Pe 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

What was the foreknowledge of God in this verse? What did God know before it actually happened?

 

[lbaker]

Show me a single sinner who wished to live in heaven, be free of his sin and self-pleasure.

Whether or not a sinner wishes to live in heaven and give up his sin should have no bearing on his election though, correct?

For example, the prayers of Cornelius had no bearing on whether God saved him or not, right? God could just as well have, and perhaps has, ignored the prayers of many men in similar circumstances, according to Reformed thinking.

 

[TCGreek]

I don't think there is anyone who would disagree with this. Salvation is of the Lord, plain and simple.

But, we are responsible for accepting the offer of salvation, for responding to the call. You must believe.

1. No one denies this. Maybe we need to define the newbirth before we continue.

I believe God extends mercy to all. The rain falls on the just and the unjust.

2. The rain falling on the just and the unjust is an example of common grace and not saving, electing grace.

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen
1Pe 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

What was the foreknowledge of God in this verse? What did God know before it actually happened?

3. Let's define "newbirth" before we define "foreknowledge of God." One at a time, I say.

***edited.

 

[Amy.G]

1. One one denies this. Maybe we need to define the newbirth before we continue.



2. The rain falling on the just and the unjust is an example of common grace and not saving, electing grace.




3. Let's define "newbirth" before we define "foreknowledge of God." One at a time, I say.

OK.........

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I don't think there is anyone who would disagree with this. Salvation is of the Lord, plain and simple.

But, we are responsible for accepting the offer of salvation, for responding to the call. You must believe.

I believe God extends mercy to all. The rain falls on the just and the unjust.


1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen
1Pe 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

What was the foreknowledge of God in this verse? What did God know before it actually happened?

I have to leave the office now, but the word foreknowledge here is prognosis in the Greek. Interesting eh?

It means foreknowlege, forethought, pre-arrangement.

Compare to Acts 2:23.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Whether or not a sinner wishes to live in heaven and give up his sin should have no bearing on his election though, correct?

For example, the prayers of Cornelius had no bearing on whether God saved him or not, right? God could just as well have, and perhaps has, ignored the prayers of many men in similar circumstances, according to Reformed thinking.

I do have to run, but in first glance you have the cart before the horse here. Obviously God was preparing Cornelius for that day, because all who come to Jesus and believe on Him have been taught of the Father.

Les, when our dialogue started, had you already made up your mind about Reformed Theology?

 

[TCGreek]

OK.........

By newbirth we mean that new life principle that God gives the the dead, blind, hardened sinner to be able to response the gospel call in faith and repentance. Therefore, rebirth precedes faith and repentance.

 

[TCGreek]

1. "Foreknowledge" refers to God knowing someone intimately in advance. It is never applied to a thing but to a person or group of people.

2. Compare this with Matthew 7:23: "I never knew you..." What is meant here that Jesus didn't know, when John says Jesus knew who would not believe in Him (John 6:64)?

3. This must be a different type of knowing or foreknowledge. I propose that it means "to know beforehand in an intimate way."

 

[Brother Bob]

By newbirth we mean that new life principle that God gives the the dead, blind, hardened sinner to be able to response the gospel call in faith and repentance. Therefore, rebirth precedes faith and repentance.__________________

Just don't add up.

Rom 1:21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Here are some who "knew" God and then their foolish heart was darkened. (They Glorified Him not as God)

 

[lbaker]

I do have to run, but in first glance you have the cart before the horse here. Obviously God was preparing Cornelius for that day, because all who come to Jesus and believe on Him have been taught of the Father.

Les, when our dialogue started, had you already made up your mind about Reformed Theology?

RB,

Okay, soooooooo, is your point that God was sort of ramping up Cornelius to get him to the point where he could be regenerated? Is the idea here that the prayers and good works of Cornelius were a result of a sort of pre-regeneration preparation? If that's the case would it then follow that whenever we see prayers and good works they are the ramping up of an elect individual, if not the works of a regnerated individual?

To answer your question - I definitely was/am of the free-will camp, but I hope open minded enough that if you had pointed a scriptural smoking gun in my face I would have had to reconsider my position. I hope the same could be said for you, RB, that if I had been able to make a good enough argument you would have reconsidered your position.

Les

 

[lbaker]

Okay, back to responsibilty:

In Calvinist/Reformed thought, are we in control of, i.e. responsible for, our eternal destiny or not?

Thanks,

Les