ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
webdog said:
I think you simply overgeneralized my meaning. I had the impression Brother Bob was doing that.
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Decisional Regeneration
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I think you simply overgeneralized my meaning. I had the impression Brother Bob was doing that.
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
webdog said:
Once again, within this statement, as far as I can see, may be the misunderstanding that we teach salvation apart from faith. You know we do not teach this.
Yes, the Scripture says Believe on the Lord and you will be saved. So repentence is excluded? In other place it says, Repent and believe, and yet another says Repent and be baptized. Which "process" do you suppose it is?
And why do you set one Scripture over another? Please harmonize for me the Sovereignty of God the Holy Spirit in John 3 with man's choice being the spring and cause of the new birth.
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
webdog said:Yes...hence the littleI added to my comment
So it was your comment and not mine. Ok..:saint:
Repent and believe go hand in hand, and are not to be separated. The emphasis on repent only, and repent and believe, and repent and be baptized are all the same thing.
I don't think I've ever set one over another...I may have used one to inerpret another at some time, but I don't recall ever giving one more authority over another.
It's easy to harmonize God's sovereignty and man's free will leading to choice. The Bible teaches it.
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
webdog said:
I would like to see your explaination.
ReformedBaptist said:
Is this an example of what y'all are talking about with the answering a question with a question thing?
I'll try again - have I got this straight - Our actions have nothing to do with our eternal destiny? There is no connection between our actions and our eternal destiny?
Les
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
lbaker said:
That was a meager attempt at an illustration. I found your questioning very similar to the question posed in Romans 9. And that was God's answer.
Pretty humbling isn't it.
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
webdog said:Explanation of what?
The testimony of the Son of God as to how someone is born again.
John 3:8 "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."
Please harmonize, or explain, how this teaching complements the idea that man initiates the new birth by his choice. How can the wind blows where it wills, and man cause the new birth when he wills?
We probably shouldn't leave out John 1:12-13 either.
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I really don't see how John 3:8 can be used to support either your view or mine. It is simply stating that like the wind that blows in every direction, can be felt, and can be discerned blowing through trees and grass...the Holy Spirit exhibits similar traits through those born again. Like the wind we cannot see, the Holy Spirit is there. This is a similie explaining the Spirit.ReformedBaptist said:
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
Excellent statement on the will
Came accross this in my studies and thought it was very, very good.
"The will of man is free from a physical or natural necessity; it does not act and move by a necessity of nature, as many creatures do. So the sun, moon, and stars, move in their course; fire, by a physical necessity, burns; light things ascend upwards, and heavy bodies move downwards. Moreover, it is free from a necessity of co-action or force; the will cannot be forced; nor is it even by the powerful, efficacious, and unfrustrable operation of God’s grace in conversion; for though before, it; is unwilling to submit to Christ, and his way of salvation, yet it is made willing in the day of his power, without offering the least violence to it; God working upon it, as Austin says, cum suavi omnipotentia et omnipotenti suavitate, with a sweet omnipotence, and an omnipotent sweetness..."
John Giil, The Cause of God and Truth
Came accross this in my studies and thought it was very, very good.
"The will of man is free from a physical or natural necessity; it does not act and move by a necessity of nature, as many creatures do. So the sun, moon, and stars, move in their course; fire, by a physical necessity, burns; light things ascend upwards, and heavy bodies move downwards. Moreover, it is free from a necessity of co-action or force; the will cannot be forced; nor is it even by the powerful, efficacious, and unfrustrable operation of God’s grace in conversion; for though before, it; is unwilling to submit to Christ, and his way of salvation, yet it is made willing in the day of his power, without offering the least violence to it; God working upon it, as Austin says, cum suavi omnipotentia et omnipotenti suavitate, with a sweet omnipotence, and an omnipotent sweetness..."
John Giil, The Cause of God and Truth
Opinion. I don't believe it supports either.
You changed the entire meaning of the verse by the above highlighted. You have added to Scripture and the meaning of the verse by adding to it (as did Gill in RB's post). It says nothing whatsoever about men being in control over the wind or the Spirit, or even insinuates such.
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
webdog said:
TC is quite right in his reponse. I wish to press this point. We are agreed that this is an analogy. And it represents God the Holy Spirit in His operation of the new birth.
1. The wind = the Holy Spirit
2. It blows = the new birth
3. where it listeth (wills) = The "it" is the Holy Spirit, He blows (causes the new birth) as He wills.
4. hear sound = we see the effect of the Holy Spirit's work.
5. Can't tell where it comes or where it goes = It is mysterious and uncontrollable we don't really comprehend its operation.
So is everyone who is born of the spirit.
This startled me when I was more "arminian" in my thinking. I wondered, how can this be? All I have to do is pray an earnest pray to Jesus and I will be born again.
This is not what Jesus has taught us concerning the new birth.
And let us further add to our understanding:
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:12-13
We should not suppose that a man is born again APART from faith, but through faith. But they are NOT born according to the will of man, as the Scripture could not more plainly say.
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
webdog said:
Hold on web, that is quite a serious accusation there, to say we (or Gill) are adding to the Scriptures. We are merely explaining our understanding of its meaning and making commentary on it. Quite a difference.
And perhaps I have misunderstood you. At worst what we could be in danger of is imposing our own understanding upon the Scripture, rather than deriving our understanding FROM the Scripture.
My post above is my best attempt at exegesis. I am no scholar. But I know how to read, as we all do, and seek no other understanding from the text than what the text is teaching.
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
accidental double post
Since you and I last talked you accerted via my questions that regeneration/born-again is the same thing as being saved.ReformedBaptist said:
Now, in the OP you ask if regeneration (salvation) is decisional (based upon my decision). The answer is simple and extremely biblical. Yes it is.
Does this mean that Man "controls" the New Birth? No.
1. Man does not tell God, you must save me - for man can not tell God to do anything. God is not our servant to do our bidding.
1. Does this mean that Man is 'responsible' with regard to the New Birth? Yes.
...a. God states via His word that man must believe (active tense meaning the subject is the doer of a thing) and man will be saved. Not that through mans belief he demands God save him. This has been the common misrepresentation for centuries.
2. Man must believe, but believe what and to what end?
...a. Basically Man must believe the gospel or good news that we are all condemned to hell for our sinful rebellion against God and still while we were yet sinners Christ died for our sins, and rose again. In this we might be reconciled unto God through the work of Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
...b. To what end - that by believing we might be saved.
...c. Man can not 'demand' salvation from God as though God is obligated to man.
...d. However, when God tells us that He alone has purchased our redemption through the work of His Son alone, and that whosoever (a universal call) believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Then who am I to deny the Grace of God who set His Son to the the propitiation for sins but not ours only but the sins of the Whole World.
Man does not 'control' salvation in the Non-Cal view anymore than regenerate man does in the Cal view. Both state that 'Man' must believe in order to be saved. Man CAN NOT be saved unless he believes. Man, regardless of the theological bent we may surmise, is still responsible to believe that he might be saved. Man has a part in his salvation, unless you deny the scriptures which state "believe and you will be saved".
That my friend is the crux of the issue. If man has no part in salvation then man does not need to be believe in order to be saved at all, correct? Man would be saved regardless of belief. There is no glory given to the one who receives a gift, but all glory is given to the giver. Because it was his grace, his mercy, his power which brought to the person that which they did not have nor could the obtain.
(I have been away for the most part and wish to appologize for not continuing our dialog in the other thread)
The fact is Scripture makes no mention of man controling the wind or the Spirit...that is something Gill and TC stated it meant. Please supply where the text in context is even hinting that man is contoling either the wind or the Spirit.ReformedBaptist said:
Albert Barnes's commentary (calvinist, btw) even agrees with my assesment of 3:8. It has nothing to do with man contoling the wind or the Spirit...because it is just not there...
Albert Barnes -
Joh 3:8 -
The wind bloweth ... - Nicodemus had objected to the doctrine because he did not understand how it could be. Jesus shows him that he ought not to reject it on that account, for he constantly believed things quite as difficult. It might appear incomprehensible, but it was to be judged of by its effects. As in this case of the wind, the effects were seen, the sound was heard, important changes were produced by it, trees and clouds were moved, yet the wind is not seen, nor do we know whence it comes, nor by what laws it is governed; so it is with the operations of the Spirit. We see the changes produced. Men just now sinful become holy; the thoughtless become serious; the licentious become pure; the vicious, moral; the moral, religious; the prayerless, prayerful; the rebellious and obstinate, meek, and mild, and gentle. When we see such changes, we ought no more to doubt that they are produced by some cause - by some mighty agent, than when we see the trees moved, or the waters of the ocean piled on heaps, or feet the cooling effects of a summer’s breeze. In those cases we attribute it to the "wind," though we see it not, and though we do not understand its operations. We may learn, hence:
1. that the proper evidence of conversion is the effect on the life.
2. that we are not too curiously to search for the cause or manner of the change.
3. that God has power over the most hardened sinner to change him, as he has power over the loftiest oak, to bring it down by a sweeping blast.
4. that there may be great variety in the modes of the operation of the Spirit. As the "wind" sometimes sweeps with a tempest, and prostrates all before it, and sometimes breathes upon us in a mild evening zephyr, so it is with the operations of the Spirit. The sinner sometimes trembles and is prostrate before the truth, and sometimes is sweetly and gently drawn to the cross of Jesus.
Where it listeth - Where it "wills" or "pleases."
So is every one ... - Everyone that is born of the Spirit is, in some respects, like the effects of the wind. You see it not, you cannot discern its laws, but you see its effects," and you know therefore that it does exist and operate. Nicodemus’ objection was, that he could not "see" this change, or perceive "how" it could be. Jesus tells him that he should not reject a doctrine merely because he could not understand it. Neither could the "wind" be seen, but its effects were well known, and no one doubted the existence or the power of the agent. Compare Ecc_11:5.
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