ReformedBaptist said:
Let's take this discussion a step further theologically. What we are truly discussing, since no one is denying that man is save by grace through faith, is really the difference between monergism and synergism.
No problem.
In this process, let's find where we agree and where we depart. I think we both agree that no man has the power to raise himself from spiritual death.
Agreed.
We both agree that God's assistence is needed.
Agreed.
Looking at historical theology, it is the Roman Catholic teaching that God and man work together, in a synergism.
I will try to be polite here since you have pressed a hot button of mine. So be patient with me if you will.
You would be more correct to state the early Church and the early church Fathers and not the Roman Catholic Church. Actually it goes all the way back to the Apostles our Lord Himself.
However, it was much later when the church (which called itself Catholic - or Universal) became the diseased Roman Church we see they maintianed some of the early teachings but much was distorted and perverted as well. As it grew and evolved it became much worse later on.
Roman Catholic teachings do not come close to synergysm (which is a common misconception amoung Calvinists) but is most definately semi- Pelagan. (semi-Pel view - Man desires to come to God but can't, God in turn give grace to man to help man come to him. Once man decides he really wants to come to God, God then REWARDS man with salvation) This is the cooperative relationship which 'you' are trying to apply to the Non-Cal position which in FACT is not even close to our view. We do not hold that Man must FIRST come to God and then God helps him out so that when Man decides he wants to come God rewards him for his work.
The Non-Cal view holds that man can not and will not of his own seek out or is able to do anything in such a way as to please God. However, God Himself must FIRST come to man, and by the Word and Spirit reveal truth to man (also known or viewed as drawing and convicting) and that man not being able to save himself but being worthy of damnation must either believe God's truth (regarding Gods salvation) and be judged on the merits of Christs righteousness imputed to him by grace for believing God or reject God provision and be judged on their own merits.
Man recieves nothing from God for his works.
To say these two are diametrically the same or theologically the same is either a gross misjudgment or an intentional fabrication. Semi- Pel view is based off of the primary principle of Pelaganism - Man coming to God first, and earning his reward. This is the Roman Catholic belief, and not the Non-Cal.
Rome teaches a previenant grace given to man so he may cooperate with God in his salvation. This cooperation must take place before salvation takes hold in our hearts.
Yes, in a give and take relationship which is based upon works. Salvation is their reward for a work well done and if not you get purgitory or even cast into hell if the Church excomunicates
(sp?) you.
Please research a little more before such accusations are tossed around as if they are true.
The only thing the two have in common is that salvation CAN NOT be given by God to man unless Man believes. This is the only 'cooperation' that is spoken to and it rests squarely upon scripture and very words of our Lord God. Unless man believes that which God has both said and done, man will not, nay can not be saved. Not once will you find scripture to support the view - be saved and believe. But I can show scripture after scripture which states believe
and be saved!
Martin Luther and Rome wrangles on this issue extensively and the contention continues today.
Did it ever occur to you that the Non-Cal position is just as at odds with the Catholic view of salvation as you are. Martin Luther was opposed to libertarian free-will (Both a view that the Pel and Semi-Pel hold). But not the the version of most Baptist non-Cals today regarding their understanding of free-will. They use the phrase as a point of reference (being that God gives man choice) much like Calvinists are not followers of Calvin but affirm the 5 basic principles known as the Sovereign Grace Doctrines.
What we, and the Reformation, and the Apostles of our Lord, teach and contend for is that while we were DEAD, He (not us) made us alive.
Again you are incorrect here regarding beliefs of the Non-Cal. We to affirm this and stand squarely upon it. But we see the Apostles and our Lord teaching them somewhat differently than your version. We are dead not in the wooden literal sense but metiphorically, must like when Paul also states to believers that 'we ARE
dead TO sin". Or like Jesus does in the Prodical Son.
Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
How did the son come to be home- He chose to go back there. When did he do that? According to the Father - he was dead (seperated) and chose to come to His Father and NOW is alive (unified with the father).
Also you do not view the portion of scripture which states "we are 'dead' to sin , and that dead be seen as wooden literal, because that would mean you could no more sin as the new creation in Christ than the unbeliever can do any righteous work unto God. And His making us alive isn't regeneration before salvation but the regernation OF salvation.
Eph 2:5 For it is by grace we are saved. It is a monergistic work,
I noticed that in order to make it monegeristic you had to remove a portion of scripture. "Through Faith" and faith when used as a verb is always in the active sense meaning the subject (or person in this case) is the one doing the action. If it was completely monegeristic it would be God doing the action making mans faith passive and never active.
We cooperate after regeneration, not in order to be regenerated.
Unfortunately that is an arguement that has never once been biblically proven to be truth. If it were then it would be one of the immutable truths we all agree upon such as Christ being God, His death, His burial, His resurrection, His virgin birth, ect, ect... I show you some reasons it has never been proven.
1. If salvation requires nothing from man, then man need not believe for salvation.
2. Even IF regeneration comes first, Man still must cooperate with God in order to be saved because it is imcumbient upon man by the command of God to believe that he might be saved.
Just for starters.
As I have put forth before, we can no more cooperate with God from a condition of spiritually dead, than Lazarus could with Christ being physcially dead.
Then you have over looked scriptures stating to the contrary.
Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
Mar 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
Luk 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Jhn 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
(it is of note the verb 'drinketh' regarding 'whosoever' is both active AND subjunctive - meaning the the 'whosoever' is doing the action but the action may OR MAY NOT occur - of parting in the water that Christ gives)
Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
And still many more.
As seem in some of the above verses the dead you presume is wooden literal is not so and illistrated as such in the parable of the prodical son. Also there is no life (being made alive) UNTIL AFTER they believe. Another is that man must choose to lose his life that he might be saved. WHo ever shall dring the water Christ offers will not thirst again. So far, everywhere I look in the scriptures speaks to Gods working of salvation through the offer of His Son. He is the substitute for our sins but not ours only but the sins of the Whole World.
Please do me a favor look at each time John uses the term Whole World in all his works and you will see that in every instance it is in regard toward the whole or all of sinful man and never to the saved or elect alone. If that be so according to his own pen and the leading of the Spirit to divine inspiration have a problem growing)
But in ALL of these and others man does nothing to add to Gods salvation of him nor does man First come to God and God responds, but we see the general call by God who sought out man to every sinner (for that is the whole world) and those who will believe will be saved and made alive in Christ Jesus.
