Degree- worth the paper?

[Luke2427]

Funny I thought you further went on to say this:



I know I read that somewhere...where was that?...oh yeah... it was in your OP.

I obviously meant laity in general- OBVIOUSLY since I have said well over a dozen times that there ARE EXCEPTIONS.

But I hasten once again to add that those exceptions are infinitesimally small percentage wise.

But there have been some geniuses like Spurgeon who read 6 books a week who did it.

* Spurgeon read The Pilgrim's Progress at age 6 and went on to read it over 100 times.

* The New Park Street Pulpit and The Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit—the collected sermons of Spurgeon during his ministry with that congregation—fill 63 volumes. The sermons' 20-25 million words are equivalent to the 27 volumes of the ninth edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica. The series stands as the largest set of books by a single author in the history of Christianity.

* Spurgeon's mother had 17 children, nine of whom died in infancy.

* When Charles Spurgeon was only 10 years old, a visiting missionary, Richard Knill, said that the young Spurgeon would one day preach the gospel to thousands and would preach in Rowland Hill's chapel, the largest Dissenting church in London. His words were fulfilled.

* Spurgeon missed being admitted to college because a servant girl inadvertently showed him into a different room than that of the principal who was waiting to interview him. (Later, he determined not to reapply for admission when he believed God spoke to him, "Seekest thou great things for thyself? Seek them not!")

* Spurgeon's personal library contained 12,000 volumes—1,000 printed before 1700. (The library, 5,103 volumes at the time of its auction, was housed at William Jewell College in Liberty, Missouri, until being moved to Midwestern Baptist Theological College & Seminary in 2006.)

* Before he was 20, Spurgeon had preached over 600 times.

* Spurgeon drew to his services Prime Minister W. E. Gladstone, members of the royal family, Members of Parliament, as well as author John Ruskin, Florence Nightingale, and General James Garfield, later president of the United States.

 

[Havensdad]

I obviously meant laity in general- OBVIOUSLY since I have said well over a dozen times that there ARE EXCEPTIONS.

They still won't read it. If they did, they would not be able to keep touting anti-intellectualism...

 

[GBC Pastor]

Either it is superior, and therefore valuable, or it is unnecessary and therefore expensive and unwarranted. If the same education can be obtained without educated, Godly teachers, then seminary is a worthless and needless expense.

Why does this have to be so in your opinion? I had a wonderful time in seminary. I learned a lot and sat under some wonderful men of God. The courses I took challenged me and helped me to grow as a minister. I am extremely blessed to have had the opportunity to go to seminary. I value the "piece of paper" that hangs from my wall. However, I would never say that it can't be done another way- meaning theological education. Nor would I ever say that my biblical knowledge must be superior and of greater value just because I went to seminary.

 

[righteousdude2]

Okay

All of this is fine and there's something to it- but do you deny that tools are given in seminary that the average layman does not have? Greek, etc...

You asked my opinion, and I gave it. If Greek makes the pastor better, than so be it! I can obtain the greek and hebrew meanings through the assistance of excellent on line programs and PC software.

I wish you luck in whatever direction you are led.

 

[Luke2427]

Why does this have to be so in your opinion? I had a wonderful time in seminary. I learned a lot and sat under some wonderful men of God. The courses I took challenged me and helped me to grow as a minister. I am extremely blessed to have had the opportunity to go to seminary. I value the "piece of paper" that hangs from my wall. However, I would never say that it can't be done another way- meaning theological education. Nor would I ever say that my biblical knowledge must be superior and of greater value just because I went to seminary.

Havensdad, do you want to take turns. I'll get this one- you get the next one that mischaracterizes what we are saying.

Havensdad has said several times that there are some who get tremendous training outside a seminary- but he further elaborates that even those people leaned upon scholars they read after that DID HAVE AT LEAST A SEMINARY DEGREE.

 

[Luke2427]

You asked my opinion, and I gave it. If Greek makes the pastor better, than so be it! I can obtain the greek and hebrew meanings through the assistance of excellent on line programs and PC software.

I wish you luck in whatever direction you are led.

Thanks, and God bless.

 

[Havensdad]

Why does this have to be so in your opinion? I had a wonderful time in seminary. I learned a lot and sat under some wonderful men of God. The courses I took challenged me and helped me to grow as a minister. I am extremely blessed to have had the opportunity to go to seminary. I value the "piece of paper" that hangs from my wall. However, I would never say that it can't be done another way- meaning theological education. Nor would I ever say that my biblical knowledge must be superior and of greater value just because I went to seminary.

The fact is that the Bible clearly states that the training of a minister is to be done by Godly teachers. Not self study.

As far as the other, if you are not more knowledgeable, on average, than the unschooled layman, then your degree was an act of horrible stewardship, wasted time, and arrogant aggrandizing. The only way that Seminary studies (and the money expended) is valuable is if it is superior. If you can get just as good of an education without it, then the superior choice would be to engage in self study, and use those thousands of dollars to finance mission and evangelism efforts.

 

[TCGreek]

Pastors should be properly trained, whether this means having a few degrees or not is not really the point.

 

[GBC Pastor]

I obviously meant laity in general- OBVIOUSLY since I have said well over a dozen times that there ARE EXCEPTIONS.

But I hasten once again to add that those exceptions are infinitesimally small percentage wise.

Yes Luke by page five you had conceited errrr conceded that there are exceptions to the rule...however your posts through the first five pages stuck to the proposition of grouping all laymen together.

As for these percentages that you seem to have the inside track on...would you care to enlighten the rest of us with a source for this claim?

 

[Havensdad]

Pastors should be properly trained, whether this means having a few degrees or not is not really the point.

Absolutely. I believe the best way to do it in modern times is Seminary, but I have already stated that an apprenticeship model under a very Godly and knowledgeable Pastor/Teacher, would be an acceptable Biblical alternative.

The operative statement is "be trained"...it is a function of the local church, in training an individual for ministry (whether directly or by proxy), not simply "self study."

 

[TCGreek]

Absolutely. I believe the best way to do it in modern times is Seminary, but I have already stated that an apprenticeship model under a very Godly and knowledgeable Pastor/Teacher, would be an acceptable Biblical alternative.

The operative statement is "be trained"...it is a function of the local church, in training an individual for ministry (whether directly or by proxy), not simply "self study."

I do like the apprenticeship model. I think the Apostle Paul would like this very much.

 

[Havensdad]

...however your posts through the first five pages stuck to the proposition of grouping all laymen together.

GROSS mis-characterization. Luke said, in his OP...

"people who are thoroughly theologically trained and educated tend to have a stronger grasp on the Scriptures than those who have no formal training whatsoever in this matter"
(Emphasis mine, for clarification).

He has been saying this all along, you just chose not to listen, so you could beat your drum...

As for these percentages that you seem to have the inside track on...would you care to enlighten the rest of us with a source for this claim?

From personal ministry experience, I would say that 9 out of 10 laymen in the church are completely ignorant of scripture. Unfortunately, in the Baptist churches these are usually the people that end up on all of the committees.

Of the remaining 1 out of 10, probably half have gotten their theology from some pet televangelist, rather than the scriptures, and their own pastor/teacher.
The other half tend to be wonderful men of God, deacons and such, with no formal theological training, but that can quote the Word, and study it regularly. Strong Christian men and women, no doubt, but still tend to be less knowledgeable about doctrine than the Seminarians/pastors/professors. There are very rare exceptions to this (I know ONE), who have managed to accrue a large amount of knowledge on their own.

 

[Luke2427]

Yes Luke by page five you had conceited errrr conceded that there are exceptions to the rule...however your posts through the first five pages stuck to the proposition of grouping all laymen together.

As for these percentages that you seem to have the inside track on...would you care to enlighten the rest of us with a source for this claim?

No they did not. Look at the OP.

I said seminary education TENDS to make one more knowledgeable than laymen.

I said it in the very first post.

 

[Luke2427]

I don't think that. Arrogance is what I am arguing against.

I think arrogance is NOT DOING the work and claiming equality with the one's who have done the work.

There are prodigies along life's way who are geniuses without formal training- but they are by far the exceptions and not the rules.

For the average layman to say- "Jonathan Edwards is no more biblically savvy than me"- that is arrogance.

This is post number 24. Not only did I say it in the OP but I said it very clearly in this post two pages later.

 

[Luke2427]

Church history is rife with these kinds of exceptions to the rule. But that is what they are- exceptions.

I wonder if William Carey leaned heavily upon scholars as he translated the Scriptures.

I think we know that he did.

Thank God then that William Carey had access to the wisdom of formally trained men!

Amen?

P. S. William Carey did indeed stand against hyper-calvinism as we all should. but he was a thorough Calvinist himself. Just wanted to make sure we all are on the same page.

This is post number 30.

Do you wish to continue trying to argue that I have changed my tune late in this thread or would you at this time like to yield that you are arguing straw men?

 

[GBC Pastor]

And here are these posts:

Is it not also arrogance for laity to assume that they can go to the Bible and dig out as much or more than those who have dedicated a decade of their lives in universities specializing in the study of the Scriptures?

I am saying that it is not arrogant to say that those folks have a leg up on laymen who live the most of their lives in the secular world. Post #5


Yes. There is no way a person who has not learned Greek and Hebrew and written a couple of theses on theological research and passed a hundred rigorous theological exams and sat under some of the most brilliant living Bible scholars on earth can know as much about the Bible as one who has done these things. Post #21

You can't have it both ways Luke...you either believe one way or the other

 

[GBC Pastor]

It seems to me saying that there is "no way" indicates a pretty strong sentiment on your part.

 

[Luke2427]

And here are these posts:



You can't have it both ways Luke...you either believe one way or the other

Every one of these statements is consistent with the multiple statements where I clarified that there are exceptions.

Even those who learn Greek, etc... outside of a seminary learn it at the feet of SCHOLARS whom they at the very least read after.

And those represent an infinitesimal percentage of laymen.

This is thoroughly consistent.

It is plain for anyone to see.

You have been shown clearly by two people that you are mischaracterizing me. When will you cease naming your straw man after me?

 

[Luke2427]

And here are these posts:



You can't have it both ways Luke...you either believe one way or the other

It is so incredibly obvious that I meant laity in general since it wasn't two line above that that I said seminary education TENDS to give one a firmer grasp.

 

[GBC Pastor]

What seems incredibly obvious to me is that your position varies as it suits you. Sometime there is "no way it is possible" other times "there are exceptions."

Still waiting on your support for this claim:

And those represent an infinitesimal percentage of laymen.

Hate to be a bother but isn't this also another exaggeration?

It is plain for anyone to see.

Don't I count as anyone? Because it isn't plain to me. And certainly I should count if anyone should seeing as I have an MDiv from a big six seminary! :thumbs: (Please read in all duly intended facetiousness)