Denominational division

[Darron Steele]

...
As it was said before if you look at the creeds, faith statements and so on you will find that no one is agreeing even on essential issues. If they agreed then they would not have to divide into different groups.

"if they agreed they would not have to divide" ... that is like saying `If the person did not leave that money laying around, I would not have to steal it.'

It is hard to like people who hold views we strongly disagree with. We tend to want to divide against such people and rival against them.

Disagreement is not an approved reason to divide in Scripture. The temptation is to be resisted.

We are to serve the Lord Jesus Christ united in our common task despite our disagreements. We are to put Him above our desires to be agreed-with.

DARRON STEELE:
It is hard to like people who hold views we strongly disagree with. We tend to want to divide against such people and rival against them.

Especially when there is no biblically authority for it. Sort of like those denominations that ordain women "Pastors" and "Ministers". As well as the denominations who have to have big meetings on whether or not homosexuality is wrong, as if they needed a meeting.

Yeah; it poses a real challenge.

I try to step up and resist the carnal urge to divide.

From all indications, you do not. You essentially say `They are tempting me so much that it is their fault that I do what Scripture prohibits, but I am okay, because it is their fault for tempting me.'

 

[JSM17]

Yeah; it poses a real challenge.

I try to step up and resist the carnal urge to divide.

From all indications, you do not. You essentially say `They are tempting me so much that it is their fault that I do what Scripture prohibits, but I am okay, because it is their fault for tempting me.'

You divide when the group you in does not follow the bible, they do not turn from the wrong, then what else can you do. That is why we debate the topics of dispute publically, so as to prove the truth to be truth and the false teaching to be false. If the congregation that I am with decided to ordain women ministers, I would oppose and show the error through scripture if they would not reconsider the error I would move on. I would not consider those who decided to go against the scriptures to be in fellowship with God, if un repented. We walk in the light when we have fellowship with the Apostles teaching according to 1 John 1. At what point do those who walk in error no longer walk in the light, they do not confess their wrong doing and continue to sin, then what is our responsibility?

Striving for unity at the expense of doctrinal soundness is just as much a sin as the sin that some may be in. I believe that there are sins of commision and omission, yet they re both sins, one is done when we know we are doing it the other is when we may not be aware of it. How far does the grace of God cover our error when not repented of?

 

[Darron Steele]

You divide when the group you in does not follow the bible, they do not turn from the wrong, then what else can you do. ..

Huh?

You do not know what I do or do not do.

I most certainly do not divide from a group just because it does not do things how I think it ought to according to my best understanding of Scripture.

If I did that, I would be dividing against every other Christian alive.

If I did that, eventually I would be able to assemble with no one; I would do as Hebrews 10:24-5 says not to do.

I understand your ways of thinking about agreement/disagreement and unity/division. I once had them myself.

I learned and repented.

 

[Darron Steele]

...How far does the grace of God cover our error when not repented of?

If we are Christians, for as long as the error remains undetected.

If a person
a) lives as a follower of Jesus Christ, and
b) exalts Him and His work as Scripture tells us to,
but holds a mistaken notion, then I assume s/he is not fully aware of the mistake. After all, based on the above, we can be pretty sure that if s/he was fully aware of the mistake, s/he would reject the notion.

In contrast, it seems like if you cannot convince that Christian to change views, you promptly pass judgment that s/he is a willful rebel against Jesus Christ.

 

[TCGreek]

Every Bible-based, Spirit-filled, and Christ-centered denomination is the one Body of Christ.

 

[JSM17]

Every Bible-based, Spirit-filled, and Christ-centered denomination is the one Body of Christ.

SCRIPTURE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSM17
You divide when the group you in does not follow the bible, they do not turn from the wrong, then what else can you do. ..

Huh?

You do not know what I do or do not do.

I most certainly do not divide from a group just because it does not do things how I think it ought to according to my best understanding of Scripture.

If I did that, I would be dividing against every other Christian alive.

If I did that, eventually I would be able to assemble with no one; I would do as Hebrews 10:24-5 says not to do.

I understand your ways of thinking about agreement/disagreement and unity/division. I once had them myself.

I learned and repented.

I was speaking in a general sense, no need to get defensive, besides you missed the point. It is not true that we would only be able to fellowship with ourselves. There is a common faith that we all can hold too. There is one gospel, there is one faith, you know.

In contrast, it seems like if you cannot convince that Christian to change views, you promptly pass judgment that s/he is a willful rebel against Jesus Christ.

An assumption on your part.

Gal 1:6-9
I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,

7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
NKJV


All though it sounds like Paul takes this pretty serious.

 

[TCGreek]

SCRIPTURE?

Typical church of Christer.

What are you doing on this board among all these unsaved folks? Are you trying to get us saved?

 

[Darron Steele]

Gal 1:6-9
I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,

7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
NKJV


All though it sounds like Paul takes this pretty serious.

Took what serious?

Did he take the problem he was writing about serious, or what a lot of people wish he was talking about serious?

What he was talking about: a bunch of non-Christians teaching that Jesus Christ's death did not change anything. Yeah; that is serious.

What he is not talking about: piddly disagreements that do not genuinely amount to anything except when our groups are together.

 

[JSM17]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSM17
SCRIPTURE?

Typical church of Christer.

What are you doing on this board among all these unsaved folks? Are you trying to get us saved?

Whats typical is when someone makes a statement as you did:

Every Bible-based, Spirit-filled, and Christ-centered denomination is the one Body of Christ.

....and then is asked for scripture and instead of giving scripture he says something like this:

Typical church of Christer

Is "Christer" a word?

See if John 17 fits your statement about denominations.

John 17:20, 21
"I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;

21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
NKJV

 

[TCGreek]

See if John 17 fits your statement about denominations.

John 17:20, 21
"I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;

21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
NKJV

Yes, all believers in the various denominations fit John 17:21.

 

[JSM17]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSM17
Gal 1:6-9
I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,

7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
NKJV


All though it sounds like Paul takes this pretty serious.

Took what serious?

Did he take the problem he was writing about serious, or what a lot of people wish he was talking about serious?

What he was talking about: a bunch of non-Christians teaching that Jesus Christ's death did not change anything. Yeah; that is serious.

What he is not talking about: piddly disagreements that do not genuinely amount to anything except when our groups are together.

First of all Paul was not talking to bunch of non-Christians, these people were called and they were turning away from HIM who called them.

As for the issues we are talking about are certainly serious, division is serious, whether people are divide over small things or big things.

1 Cor 1:10
Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.NKJV


Gal 1:6
I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,
NKJV

 

[billwald]

Modern Denominational division was caused by the Reformation???

 

[Darron Steele]

Written to JSM17

Typical church of Christer.

What are you doing on this board among all these unsaved folks? Are you trying to get us saved?

JMS17: Please try to answer the questions.

A lot of people get tired of Church of Christ self-righteousness at some point. I have a hard time putting up with you myself.

Now, you were asked two questions. I would like to see your answer for these.

Whats typical is when someone makes a statement as you did:

....and then is asked for scripture and instead of giving scripture he says something like this:

JSM17: you have been downright obnoxious on this board.

TCGreek is not to be blamed for losing patience with you.

You called on him to provide Scripture which essentially teaches that all Christians are in the same one church. That is a no-brainer.

What is amazing to me and numerous other people is how so many Church of Christ people can insist that not all followers of Jesus Christ are Christians. THAT is where Scripture needs to be provided.

Before you lecture us about making sure we have Scripture to throw in front of you to substantiate that we really, really do get our views from Scripture, maybe you ought to remember that you do not have Scripture for all your views.

...
See if John 17 fits your statement about denominations.

John 17:20, 21
"I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;

21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
NKJV

Church of Christ congregations normally represent something much worse than a "denomination" -- often, they represent a faction.

A faction is a group of people that exists in rivalry against persons not in their group.

Denominations are not necessarily factions. Many are not. Many are doing their part for John 17:20-1 by serving the Lord in cooperation.

It would be nice if more in the Churches of Christ would join much of the larger church -- rather than work in active opposition to John 17:20-1.

 

[Darron Steele]

Gal 1:6-9
I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,

7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
NKJV


All though it sounds like Paul takes this pretty serious.

Took what serious?

Did he take the problem he was writing about serious, or what a lot of people wish he was talking about serious?

What he was talking about: a bunch of non-Christians teaching that Jesus Christ's death did not change anything. Yeah; that is serious.

What he is not talking about: piddly disagreements that do not genuinely amount to anything except when our groups are together.

First of all Paul was not talking to bunch of non-Christians, ...

Ahem.

The honest reader will recognize that you have made a word change to alter my position.

I said "What he was talking about" and you wrote "Paul was not talking to" in order to dispute me.

I get to change my position if I change my mind; you do not get to `adapt' my position to make your argument seem more valid.

If you care to address what I actually said, rather than do position falsification tactics used in too many Church of Christ circles, that would be cool.

After all, if the truth really was adequate to support your views, such tactics would not be needed.

 

[JSM17]

TCGreek can speak for himself and I do not remember you (Darron Steele) being a moderator.

I asked for scripture for his statement, he has not given one, but that's ok.

Just because I am from the church of Christ and you and a few others have had some bad experiences with the coc does not give you the right to talk down to me as if I have done someone here any wrong. I have been here for some time and I stick with the topics and do my best to represent what i believe through scripture. I may have strayed a few times into snarkiness, but no more than yourself and other here.

You ask me to answer his questions yet he has denied answering mine, you can't moderate for one side. Besides you and I both know the answer to the questions. I am sure the TCGREEK knows the answers to the questions as well.

The point of the thread is Denomintional division, not why JSM17 is here. This section of the forum is set up for denomination debate, we can be thankful it is here, it has helped me and others I am sure. It sure beats watching tv like the rest of the brainwashed world.

 

[DHK]

See if John 17 fits your statement about denominations.

John 17:20, 21
"I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;

21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
NKJV

Does John 17 apply to your denomination in the same way that you infer it does not when you answered TCGreek in this manner?

 

[Darron Steele]

TCGreek can speak for himself and I do not remember you (Darron Steele) being a moderator.
... you can't moderate for one side.

Did I claim that I was moderating?

You are darn right I am not a moderator. I have been an Internet discussion board moderator. I gave it up and do not intend to do it again.

I ask people to do things all the time in real life, and people ask me to do things all the time in real life. It does not mean that anyone is asserting some sort of authority. It is no different here.

Please do not base yourself to such wild personal comments when you are asked simple questions.

I asked you to answer TCGreek's questions because I would like to see those questions answered in your own words.

Just because I am not a moderator does not mean that I am not entitled to ask you to answer questions I would like to see your answers to.

 

[TCGreek]

TCGreek can speak for himself...

I've answered your question in comment #70.

The same Scripture you used to deny denominations is the same Scripture I used, when I said that "all believers in the various denominations make up the Body of Christ."

You cannot except this answer because of your typical, traditional church of Christ bent.

The typical, traditional church of Christ believes everyone must become like them. That's their understanding of Jesus' prayer.

So no Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, and so on...

You asked for Scripture to justify might statement that "all Bible-based, Spirit-filled, Christ-centered denominations make up the Body of Christ, I give you unequivocally John 17:21.

 

[JSM17]

What are you doing on this board among all these unsaved folks? Are you trying to get us saved?

Proclaiming the truth, standing for a gospel that does not teach division among Christians. John 17 does not imply denominations it speaks against them. Again untied as Christ is with the Father, I do not see that in denominations and you do not as well. Is a church of Christ united with a baptist, or a Methodist united with a Pentecostal, a Catholic with a Lutheran? Is that the kind of unity Jesus spoke of?

I am interested in all peoples salvation, if lost then to proclaim the gospel so they can be saved. I am trying to help those blinded by division (denominationalism), to see the truth about manmade doctrines. This goes far deeper than a few disagreements about so called non-essential issues.

I do not speand much time on things not pertaining to non salvation issues, as you can tell. I have been on Catholic boards and puritan boards, even church of Christ boards. Its not enough for people to just be Christians, they want to be affiliated with some group or majority, I guess it makes them feel better about their beliefs, even if they are not scriptural. I have already admitted that even the church of Christ is dividing over issues which is most unfortunate, even though some of the issues are essential and need to be made right.

 

[Darron Steele]

...Its not enough for people to just be Christians, they want to be affiliated with some group or majority, I guess it makes them feel better about their beliefs, even if they are not scriptural. ...

JSM17: I am one of a number of people who have been in the Churches of Christ who have wanted "to just be Christians" and you know what?

It required me to leave the Churches of Christ. To be just a Christian, and still be able to do much more than fill a pew and give up money, I had to move on.

In contrast, I dare say that the reason why many people are in the Churches of Christ is because
a) it encourages them to feel superior, and
b) it allows and fosters carnal urges to be against, against, against.
This does not describe remotely all adherents of the Churches of Christ -- but disproportionately many.