Denominational division

[FlyForFun]

Scripture requires whatever doctrines it teaches. I don't think God intended for truth to be optional. All are not equally clear, but all are equally required to be believed. There are things on which someone can differ and still be a believer, but they still believe incorrect doctrine.

Take, for instance, baptism. If someone believes that we should baptize babies (for whatever reason ... covenant, regeneration, etc), then they will not be able to be a part of a church that teaches believer's baptism. That division is necessitated by false doctrine. No matter how sincere it is, it is still false. .

Not sure what a "systematic box" is, but God has one system of truth. It does not contradict. That means every verse fits with every other verse.

Can God be comprehended by any system of theology?

No -- though scripture gives us a clear enough outline of God's attributes and expectations to create a system that is internally logical, it is not exhaustive, but is rather limited to our current need and ability (even though based on truth).

Thus "No man knows the day or the hour..." as that information has not been given to us. In the same way reconciling God's Providence and our apparent freedom has not been revealed, neither have many of the things that are "too wondrous for us," or not revealed to us for "His ways are above our ways."

The presumption that we possess all truth is nowhere in Scripture. We have the Word, which is Truth, but not all truth.

Nothing we know can be comprehensively true, as we are finite.

This is intentional, as it reinforces dependence on God, humility, and the role of the Church in interpretating, instructing, and winnowing doctrines.

 

[RAdam]

What you just posted is a cop-out for having to make your theological ideas all make logical sense with each other and not contradict the bible. Those that can't will say, "these things are too great for us, we can't comprehend them, they are beyond us, etc." If that is the case, why does God even give us the bible and the spirit of a sound mind?

 

[FlyForFun]

What you just posted is a cop-out for having to make your theological ideas all make logical sense with each other and not contradict the bible. Those that can't will say, "these things are too great for us, we can't comprehend them, they are beyond us, etc." If that is the case, why does God even give us the bible and the spirit of a sound mind?

No, what I just posted was a response to someone that asserted that we have all truth, and those that disagree with the Truth I have are teaching False Doctrine.

The Scriptures provide us all the Truth we need for faith and practice. Our own study of the scripture ("Preisthood of all believers") coupled with the teaching of the Church and the inner testimnoy of the Holy Spirit will shape and create in us understanding of doctrines that we can understand and apply.

HOWEVER -- we will never attain "full truth," and those that assert they have it all must be avoided. The Bible is clearly inspired, as it provides in clear, simple terms a child can understand the nature of sin, the work of Christ, and the hope of eternal Glory and enjoyment of God.

At the same time it tests the most able minds and has for centuries.

I think a good dose of humility is essential for maintaining cordial Christian brotherhood, at the same time a grounded, clear understanding or the unambiguous elements of the faith must be expounded and assented.

But for those elements which afford debate, we must remember that above all the gifts, love does not seek its own, but rather the good of the other.

When an article of debate comes up, I will make my point as strong as the next, but my intent should always to help the other reach the same conclusion because it more clearly reveals the Savior and His works.

But if I'm just trying to score points of show how awesome my reasoning is and how poor yours is -- well, that's dangerous ground.

 

[TCGreek]

Proclaiming the truth, standing for a gospel that does not teach division among Christians. John 17 does not imply denominations it speaks against them. Again untied as Christ is with the Father, I do not see that in denominations and you do not as well. Is a church of Christ united with a baptist, or a Methodist united with a Pentecostal, a Catholic with a Lutheran? Is that the kind of unity Jesus spoke of?

So is it sinful to call myself a Baptist?

Don't presume to know what I believe: all believers are united to the Father through Christ and it doesn't matter what denomination they belong to.

But you cannot accept this statement of mine. It is counter what you hold to as much as you're here trying to be diplomatic.

Again, all denominations that are Bible-based, Spirit-filled, and Christ-centered are a fulfillment of Jesus' prayer in John 17:21.

But you cannot accept this.

We don't need to leave our denominations.

 

[Enow]

Denominationalism is inherently and fundamentally wrong.

There was one body and one faith (Eph. 4:4-6).

DARRON STEELE WROTE:

Denominationalism is division, its not about whether we do things the same way or that we agree about doing things the way we want to. It is about doing things the way God commanded us to do things.

As for "silly non-scripture notion"(s) scripture itself teaches us that division is wrong, that we are to be of one mind, this would pertain to doctrine, worship, and living.

Shall I start to show the essential issues that divide all the major denominations.

They divided because of important issues, they did not divide because one like this type of music and the other this one. They all divided because they could not agree on the three issues stated above.

All you have to do is study the denominations and their beliefs and you can see this.

How about the way God addressed each of the seven churches in Revelation?

Being how the way it was given was paramount to judgment falling on the House of God at the rapture event so that those that did not heed His warnings or corrections would go through that hour of temptation that would try all on the earth and be cast into the great tribulation, which of the seven churches applies to which of these denomenations today? And how does God's warnings and corrections be applied to those denomenations?

Or is that not in line with your OP?

 

[Darron Steele]

All of the words quoted above come from JSM17.

The "Darron Steele wrote" was system-generated when JSM17 quoted me; my words s/he quoted were not included.

None of my words are in that post.

 

[FlyForFun]

Being how the way it was given was paramount to judgment falling on the House of God at the rapture event so that those that did not heed His warnings or corrections would go through that hour of temptation that would try all on the earth and be cast into the great tribulation, which of the seven churches applies to which of these denomenations today?

That is one LONG sentence... can you please break it down a bit? It's perfectly incomprehensible...

 

[RAdam]

How about the way God addressed each of the seven churches in Revelation?

Being how the way it was given was paramount to judgment falling on the House of God at the rapture event so that those that did not heed His warnings or corrections would go through that hour of temptation that would try all on the earth and be cast into the great tribulation, which of the seven churches applies to which of these denomenations today? And how does God's warnings and corrections be applied to those denomenations?

Or is that not in line with your OP?

This is why errors such as pre-trib rapture exist. How can one read the first 3 chapters of Revelation and see them as some sort of qualification test for rapture is beyond me. Nowhere in there is rapture spoken of or implied. It is a false premise forced upon that section of scripture.

 

[FlyForFun]

This is why errors such as pre-trib rapture exist. How can one read the first 3 chapters of Revelation and see them as some sort of qualification test for rapture is beyond me. Nowhere in there is rapture spoken of or implied. It is a false premise forced upon that section of scripture.

The "Rapture" is derived from a variety of texts, including 1 Thessalonians 4:

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

 

[RAdam]

Surely you missed the part where I typed "in there", meaning in the addresses to the seven churches in the second and third chapters of revelation.

 

[FlyForFun]

Surely you missed the part where I typed "in there", meaning in the addresses to the seven churches in the second and third chapters of revelation.

You won't find "God" in Ruth, either.

Text without context is pretext.

 

[RAdam]

I'm not talking about merely the word rapture, I'm talking about the concept. Jesus is not telling churches what they must to in order to be raptured. He's addressing churches in that day, over 1,900 years ago. No, I don't think all of Revelation was fullfilled in AD 70 so don't lump me in that group. But, I do believe these things were directly applicable to them. They are also applicable to us.

Jesus is telling churches that they are in error on some things and that He has the power to take away their candlestick so that they will no longer be a church. He isn't discussing rapture, He's giving instruction to churches then and now to follow His instructions or be disciplined.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Can God be comprehended by any system of theology?

Fully? No. But truly? Yes. The Bible reveals a system of theology that is truth about God. He can be truly known.

The presumption that we possess all truth is nowhere in Scripture.

Who presumes that? I have never heard that from anyone.

 

[DHK]

You won't find "God" in Ruth, either.

Text without context is pretext.

You are thinking of another book:

Ruth 1:16 And Ruth said, Intreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God:

Ruth 2:12 The LORD recompense thy work, and a full reward be given thee of the LORD God of Israel, under whose wings thou art come to trust.

 

[DHK]

Does John 17 apply to your denomination in the same way that you infer it does not when you answered TCGreek in this manner?

JSM17, Why haven't you answered this for me yet?

 

[Enow]

That is one LONG sentence... can you please break it down a bit? It's perfectly incomprehensible...

For those wondering what FlyForFun is referring to...

How about the way God addressed each of the seven churches in Revelation?

Being how the way it was given was paramount to judgment falling on the House of God at the rapture event so that those that did not heed His warnings or corrections would go through that hour of temptation that would try all on the earth and be cast into the great tribulation, which of the seven churches applies to which of these denomenations today? And how does God's warnings and corrections be applied to those denomenations?

Okay.

The way God addressed each of the seven churches in Revelation was to give a warning, any correction and any exhortation that would prepare that particular church to avoid going through the great tribulation.

Being how we are in the latter times, which of the seven churches in Revelation can be compared to what denomenation today in how the warning, the correction, and the exhortation can be applied to?

To expound further....

And in line with the OP, denomenational differences are seen in those seven churches and yet they were considered His for Him to be addressing them as such. So as much as denomenational division is being seen in Revelation, they are the body of Christ, BUT not every church was abiding in Him.

So as we look at the denomenational division today, it is due to doctrines in regards to the keeping of the faith in Christ that causes division. One denomenation may point to another as not keeping the faith and thus not abiding in Him. Some will err by declaring they are not saved instead of seeing them as labouring in unbelief. In any event, all believers have been bought with a price and sealed as His, but many warnings and instructions are given in the keeping of the faith in Christ so that believers will not move away from the hope of the gospel so that they may be found abiding in Him.

Hope that clarified my post better. If not, sorry. Guess you will have to ask Jesus what I am trying to convey by His grace.:jesus:

 

[RAdam]

"The way God addressed each of the seven churches in Revelation was to give a warning, any correction and any exhortation that would prepare that particular church to avoid going through the great tribulation."

Where do you find this in that section of scripture and please be specific?

 

[FlyForFun]

Fully? No. But truly? Yes. The Bible reveals a system of theology that is truth about God. He can be truly known.

The Bible is God's revelation of Himself, not a "system of theology." There is a significant difference.

While systematic theology is a critical function of the church, it is derivitive and is thus subject to error.

The Bible is wholly true -- systems built on or around the Bible are not divine, though they may point to and help clarify the divine in Scripture.

The Church has developed and promulgated creeds and confessions as systematic explications of truth -- some more successfully than others -- but none of the creeds is inspired.

I think the issue here is this -- there are some who argue that all issues are addressed and resolved in the Bible.

Others argue that critical issues are addressed, but many important issues are not even mentioned, and thus there is no reference to chapter and verse.

Some find this frightening, as it appears to reduce the comprehensiveness of Scripture. They avoid this gap by shoehorning verses in and out of context, in order to support the flawed notion that all areas of life must be directly addressed in the Scriptures.

Of course all areas are addressed -- just not directly. God deals in principles and motivations of the heart. He provided the Holy Spirit and the Body (the Church and the roles within it) to help us understand, interpret, and apply the Scriptures, thus divinely forcing us to interact and depend on one another. Sometiems this system breaks down when we twist meaning to suit ourselves or our agendas -- a reminder of our fallen nature and the now, but not yet status of our lives before final resurrection.

We see as in a glass, darkly...

 

[Enow]

This is why errors such as pre-trib rapture exist. How can one read the first 3 chapters of Revelation and see them as some sort of qualification test for rapture is beyond me. Nowhere in there is rapture spoken of or implied. It is a false premise forced upon that section of scripture.

Revelation 2: 18And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

Sounds like any christian church being involved in the community and outreach....

20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Now is the correction given to those that err and are found not abiding in Him. The repercussion is to be cast into the great tribulation if they did not repent.

As Jesus taught excommunication, so will He do when judgment falls on the House of God. Even Paul described the purpose as delievering one unto satan for the destruction of the flesh so that the soul may be saved in the day of Christ.

1 Corinthians 5: 4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

1 Corinthians 3:10-23 and Hebrews 12th chapter shows the purging being done on the House of God by God.

24But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. 26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28And I will give him the morning star. 29He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

So some of the churches in Thyatira as some of the believers do not hold to that errant doctrine and thus are given the exhortation to hold what they have till He comes.

Now then... those holding to till He comes does declare the Bridegroom coming for the chaste bride to receive Him unto Himself so that WHERE He is now, we that are ready by Him will be with Him. ( John 14:1-3) Otherwise, if war will befall all the saints in Revelation as if the rapture is not pre-trib, then why the warning to those that err if those that do not err will endure the same afflictions?

Again, of the time that is coming: to another church He addresses...

Revelation 3: 7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Sounds like a church any believer would rather be identified with...

10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

The hour of temptation that shall come upon ALL the world; hence the great tribulation again. Keeping the faith is the good fight as all those that love His appearing will receive that crown. 2 Timothy 4:1-8

12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Sounds like a good inheritance for holding fast to the keeping of the faith.

So there are two references in bold where the rapture is implied and thus spoken of. There may be more, but by His grace, may He show you where I see that.

 

[RAdam]

If the bible does not address all areas of life then why does Paul refer to the scriptures as a thorough furnisher. If the bible doesn't address every situation I'll face in life, how can it be thorough? How can it make me mature?