Denominational division

[RevJWWhiteJr]

The Rapture

1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

That would be an ecxellent arguement if it were not for the fact that verse 18 is commenting and directly tied to verses 16 & 17.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[JSM17]

Quote:
Here is an example: The Disciples of Christ advocate women "Pastors"...

That is a complicated issue that would derail the thread.

Scriptural exegesis has improved since the Churches of Christ broke away in 1906. Many people have realized that passages cited to suppress women in the church may not have been properly understood. I have no desire to debate this matter with you, as it would be pointless.

This thread was derailed long ago with the rapture, they could have started another thread, but they ate up this one, so why not respond, you wont derail the tread, besides, this is an issue that causes major division among follower of Christ, just ask Jimmy Carter.

I am interested to hear how making women "Pastor's" is a improvement in exegetical study, it would seem that it is a degression.

You said many people realize that passages cited: Which ones? Is following scripture in not allowing women to become pastors supression?

Oh, its not pointless, it very much has an important place in this thread since we are going in all different directions.

Does it bother you that Cambell and Stone are credited in starting your church as well?

 

[Darron Steele]

...

Does it bother you that Cambell and Stone are credited in starting your church as well?

Usually A. Campbell gets blamed for the Churches of Christ. Alexander Campbell and Barton Stone get credit for my denomination? Okay, I guess.

As for who started "my church," I do not know who particularly started my congregation. It does not matter to me.

There is no "my church" in the sense of a group of congregations: I am a member of the Lord's church. The same is true of all Christians regardless of where they are on Sundays.

Does it bother you that your group was started by David Lipscomb? He was the one who told the U. S. Census Bureau to count the Churches of Christ as separate from the Christians/Disciples. I see no reason why it should bother you; it did not bother me when I was in the Churches of Christ.

 

[RevJWWhiteJr]

The message of Revelation is not this: you better be good to escape all these things. Instead it is this: Jesus is coming back to gather all that are His, He shall reign in glory forever more and you with Him, and He will cast all the wicked and the devil into everlasting punishment and remake the heavens and earth in complete righteousness. That's comfort.

Let us review,,

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Now, what is the major message of the book of Revelation?

Yes, his return has been the central message of the Gospel (the good news) ever since he informed us (through his disciples) of it even before his death and resurrection. It is a promise that he in no way will break. That promise is reinstated in the book of Revelations many times, with the recording of the fulfillment of it. But, it is but one of the many events contained inside that record, and the book of Revelation by its own admission was written to inform his servants what is to take place at the end of this age, and beyond.

The message of HOPE that is contained inside the book of Revelation is magnificent. There are no words in any language that can give proper description of those events. But, just a casual study of the book of Revelation "reveals" far more warnings, carnage, judgements and wrath than the message of the reality of his return. I am afraid there are far more Christians living out side the will of God than inside, and that record documents that fact. And the consequences.

 

[DHK]

Let us review,,

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Now, what is the major message of the book of Revelation?

Yes, his return has been the central message of the Gospel (the good news) ever since he informed us (through his disciples) of it even before his death and resurrection. It is a promise that he in no way will break. That promise is reinstated in the book of Revelations many times, with the recording of the fulfillment of it. But, it is but one of the many events contained inside that record, and the book of Revelation by its own admission was written to inform his servants what is to take place at the end of this age, and beyond.

The message of HOPE that is contained inside the book of Revelation is magnificent. There are no words in any language that can give proper description of those events. But, just a casual study of the book of Revelation "reveals" far more warnings, carnage, judgements and wrath than the message of the reality of his return. I am afraid there are far more Christians living out side the will of God than inside, and that record documents that fact. And the consequences.

As JSM17 rightly said:

This thread was derailed long ago with the rapture, they could have started another thread, but they ate up this one, so why not respond, you wont derail the tread, besides, this is an issue that causes major division among follower of Christ, just ask Jimmy Carter.

Let me repeat his words again for emphasis (you are not the only one that I am addressing this to) :

"They could have started another one"

The title of this thread is "Denominational Division"

It is not "Revelation" or "The Rapture."
Please stick to the OP.

 

[RevJWWhiteJr]

My Apologies

No Christians believed in pre-trib rapture until about 200 or so years ago. I'm saying none.

I was responding to the information error in this post from a search. I do not even remember noticing the title of the thread. I DO Apologize. :BangHead: My bad !!

The one piece of denominational differences that falls into this catagory and that I am aware of is the misconception that all Christian denominations except Catholicism are "Protestant" from the Reformation, of which Martin Luther draws his historical fame. Such is not the case.

There were many "denominations" (differences and divisions) long before Rome ceased from persecuting the Church and accepted Christianity. Those "branches" were never a part of the Roman Catholic Church, and therefore not Protestant. A few branches of the Baptist "faith" (among others) are survivors of these non-protestant Christian branches of the true Church.

Again, my apologies. It should have been placed on a new post!

 

[RevJWWhiteJr]

My Apologys

Post removed. Accidental duplicate entry. Could not cancel.

 

[RAdam]

The things contained within the book of Revelation are meant to be read in light of the return of Christ. In other words, yes things will get bad, but the message is that Christ is coming back and He shall set all straight. All those that are His shall reign in glory with Him, all His enemies shall be made His footstool, and this present world shall be destroyed and remade in complete righteousness.

 

[DHK]

The things contained within the book of Revelation are meant to be read in light of the return of Christ. In other words, yes things will get bad, but the message is that Christ is coming back and He shall set all straight. All those that are His shall reign in glory with Him, all His enemies shall be made His footstool, and this present world shall be destroyed and remade in complete righteousness.

And what has this to do with the OP or "Denominational Division."
See post #185, and please stick to the OP.

 

[Melanie]

We need denominations so that we can tell who follows Biblical teachings and who follows heresy, such as baptism being needed for salvation.

What!?! Do you think you do not require baptism....if you do not need baptism to be saved what was the point of the Our Saviour dying such an awful death for our redemption.

 

[Darron Steele]

We need denominations so that we can tell who follows Biblical teachings and who follows heresy, such as baptism being needed for salvation.

What!?! Do you think you do not require baptism....if you do not need baptism to be saved what was the point of the Our Saviour dying such an awful death for our redemption.

I am not following you.

If baptism is not a cause of salvation, how would that mean that Jesus Christ died needlessly? I do not understand how you get `one can be saved without baptism = Jesus Christ did not need to die.'

I do not want to drag you into an argument, but an explanation would help me understand what you are getting at.

 

[Tom Butler]

Maybe I can get this thread back on track by repeating the questions I asked in post #41.

If denominations are unscriptural, then it is certainly desirable for us to come together as one. How do we achieve that? What must I do in order to erase those denominational barriers? What changes must I make?

And, since unity is not unilateral, what must you do, and what changes are you willing to make?

It goes without saying that all sides must change in some way to make us one?

This, of course, assumes that denominations are bad.

And how do we handle my stubbornly clinging to the notion that I believe truth, therefore others do not?

 

[annsni]

[/U]


What!?! Do you think you do not require baptism....if you do not need baptism to be saved what was the point of the Our Saviour dying such an awful death for our redemption.

Christ died to atone for our sins. What does baptism have to do with it?

 

[billwald]

>If denominations are unscriptural, then it is certainly desirable for us to come together as one. How do we achieve that? What must I do in order to erase those denominational barriers? What changes must I make?

It is not possible to undo denominations because denominations are result of our sin nature and our incomplete knowledge. Only Jesus' return will resolve the matter.

 

[Tom Butler]

It is not possible to undo denominations because denominations are result of our sin nature and our incomplete knowledge. Only Jesus' return will resolve the matter.

Exactly. And that was the point of my questions, as well.

 

[JSM17]

Quote:
Originally Posted by billwald
It is not possible to undo denominations because denominations are result of our sin nature and our incomplete knowledge. Only Jesus' return will resolve the matter.

Exactly. And that was the point of my questions, as well.

Denominations are a result of people teaching opposing doctrines, especially those doctrines of salvation. Is it being suggested that the unity that Christ prayed for (John 17) could not be obtained apart from His return?

If the Spirit led the Apostles into all truth and that foundation of truth was given to us through them in inspiration then the word is the authority and foundation that unites people in Christ.

To depart from the word of God is to no longer strive for Christ, I am not talking about stumbling or ignorantly believing something, I am talking about teaching things that are contrary to what God has revealed to us. As for man interpreting scripture one way and another man interpreting it another way, there is only one truth, either they are both wrong, or one of them is right, yet that means the other man is wrong.

When it comes to salvation issues we should strive to be right in understanding what the word says, if we are not in agreement then someone is wrong and it will not be good to be wrong about salvation issues when it comes to the day of judgement.

Matt. 7:21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

 

[Tom Butler]

Denominations are a result of people teaching opposing doctrines, especially those doctrines of salvation. Is it being suggested that the unity that Christ prayed for (John 17) could not be obtained apart from His return?

If the Spirit led the Apostles into all truth and that foundation of truth was given to us through them in inspiration then the word is the authority and foundation that unites people in Christ.

To depart from the word of God is to no longer strive for Christ, I am not talking about stumbling or ignorantly believing something, I am talking about teaching things that are contrary to what God has revealed to us. As for man interpreting scripture one way and another man interpreting it another way, there is only one truth, either they are both wrong, or one of them is right, yet that means the other man is wrong.

When it comes to salvation issues we should strive to be right in understanding what the word says, if we are not in agreement then someone is wrong and it will not be good to be wrong about salvation issues when it comes to the day of judgement.

Matt. 7:21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

But here's the problem. I believe the Bible teaches salvation by grace through faith. I have attached myself to a group of people who believe as I do. You believe that the Bible teaches salvation by grace through faith, completed by baptism. You have attached yourself to a group of people who believe as you do. One of us is wrong. Neither of us desires to change what we believe, for the sake of unity.

We can blast denominations all day long. We can agree that God's will is for us to be one. But both of us will resist the idea that unity is more important than truth.

So where does that leave us. Why, right here, debating on the Baptist Board.

 

[Johnv]

It's usually not a matter of right vs wrong. Denominationalism usually isn't the result of result of difference in core scriptural doctrine, but is usually a result in a difference of docrinal application. There is very little difference between a person who is PCA presbyterian and an RCA reformed. Their difference stems from their history and practice, not their theology or doctrine.

 

[Darron Steele]

But here's the problem. I believe the Bible teaches salvation by grace through faith. I have attached myself to a group of people who believe as I do. You believe that the Bible teaches salvation by grace through faith, completed by baptism. You have attached yourself to a group of people who believe as you do. One of us is wrong. Neither of us desires to change what we believe, for the sake of unity. ...

and neither of you need to.

What if unity was not dependent upon agreement over precept? One thing we ought to get from Romans 14:1-13 is that Christians are not expected to agree on everything.

The real problems have been

• the centuries-old tradition that if we cannot agree, we should divide and have nothing positive to do with each other. That is not in the Bible.

• factious people who insist that unless followers of Christ agree with them, they will have nothing positive to do with those Christians. That is sin in Scripture.

We need to get away from such ways of thinking.

Jesus Christ said “If any man serve me, let him follow me” (ASV) at John 12:26, and referred to His followers as “my servants” (ASV) at John 18:36. I think that our unity ought to be unity in task.

Christianity is not a weekend religion. It is a daily following of Jesus Christ and a daily life of serving Him. Being different places on Sunday should not affect our willingness to serve Him together when our groups are not assembled.

 

[Darron Steele]

JSM17, you were asked:

Maybe I can get this thread back on track by repeating the questions I asked in post #41.

If denominations are unscriptural, then it is certainly desirable for us to come together as one. How do we achieve that? What must I do in order to erase those denominational barriers? What changes must I make?

And, since unity is not unilateral, what must you do, and what changes are you willing to make?

It goes without saying that all sides must change in some way to make us one?

This, of course, assumes that denominations are bad.

And how do we handle my stubbornly clinging to the notion that I believe truth, therefore others do not?

Along that line, I would like to see your answer to this question:

What are YOU willing to do in order to get and maintain unity in Jesus Christ's church?​

It is my experience that in the Churches of Christ, the common idea is that `everyone else' needs to do something -- but `never, ever' adherents of the Churches of Christ except proselytize.

The burden for unity is on `everyone else.' The adherents of the Churches of Christ are doing `just fine.' The commands telling Christians to have and maintain unity and not divide are to `everyone else.' Therefore, I would like to see you in your own words:

Is there anything that YOU need to do for unity besides proselytize and `just keep thinking and doing as I already think and do'?​