Depression

[Molly]

Medical doctors are fine and I do appreciate how God has used medicine to help us....but....sometimes these mind altering medicines mask the real problems when it comes to psycholigical issues.

 

[Molly]

I know someone that had some problems like this...she could not even get out of bed and take care of her children...it was very strange. I don't claim to understand it all,but I think in many instances,people do not know how to handle life's circumstances the way God decribes to in His Word. He does have an answer for everything.

I could easily say things about my past that was wrong in how I was raised...past hurts and all,but I know God does not want me to focus on myself,but be the kind of person his word describes....we have got to be able to put aside wrong thinking and look to God for all answers. When things go wrong,we should rejoice....when I burn a cake,I should rejoice in what the Lord has done for me....instead of seeing the negative,we have got to be able to see the glory of the Lord even though our life may seem in shambles....God wants us to have joy in trials. That is to be our only response.

 

[Molly]

What I have read about this bipoalr disorder is that it involves mood swings....what are mood swings?

God's word says we are to be joyful even when we don't *feel* like it. Also,in the area of PMS for women,the bible does not say,be kind and all,but the week you have PMS,it is okay to yell at the children,be mean to husband,etc...nope,the Bible does not say it is ever okay...we have to have self control over our emotions,so that we react biblically in all sitiations. If we can blame PMS on being mean and hateful(which is ungodly),then we can excuse men having affairs because of their hormones....think about...the bible does not excuse sin for any reason. I just brought the hormone thing up because it had been mentioned before...I realize it may be different than a mental disorder. I really do not understand all disorders that have come about lately. I realize there are some real mental illnesses...I'm not denying that...but I still think a lot of it goes back to our thought life.

What I am saying,our moods should not control us,the Spirit of God should.

 

[Wisdom Seeker]

Molly, did you read this entire thread? Your remarks seem to dictate that you may not have. Did you look up Depression or Bi-Polar Disorder on your search engine like I suggested? I think it might really help you to gain some understanding about the subject. You do want answers to your questions don't you?

Betty, I am also thankful for the comments of John and Doubting Thomas. I came on this thread because I thought I could add some insight given my experience. Unfortunately it seems that this topic is something that is too easily debated with obstinate opinion and emotionality. I just can't get into that sort of thing. sorry.

Laurenda

 

[LadyEagle]

Doubting Thomas, good post. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like professional medical opinions count on this thread! (Yours or mine.)


Jim, agree with you, too.

Just in case anyone is interested in medical facts that depression CAN be caused by physical conditions and is not ALWAYS a spiritual condition, here are just a few out of THOUSANDS of medical links to check out.

Not that it will change anybody's preconceptions.

Recent work has suggested that there are changes in the brains of depressed patients with MS that might be related to the depression (Bakshi, Shaikh, et al., 2000). In a recent study, magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) of patients with MS showed that in certain regions of the brain—the frontal and parietal lobes—depressed patients with MS tended to have increased numbers of a lesion called “T1 black holes” (Bakshi, Czarnecki, et al., 2000). These lesions appear dark on “T1-weighted” MRI scans (Guttman, 2001), and are thought to be older lesions where tissue destruction has occurred, and where there is little ongoing inflammation or other disease activity. This finding supported an idea these researchers were testing, that lesions in the fibers connecting different areas of the brain might cause depression.

http://www.epva.org/MSQR_Archive/Winter01_2.htm


(Brain) in PET scan Images: (Depression)

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/hotsci/scandep.htm

Title: Tryptophan Depletion and PET Scanning in Remitted Depressed Patients Off Treatment and Healthy Controls
Number: 02-M-0162
Summary: This study uses a procedure called tryptophan depletion to study serotonin function during depression. Serotonin is a chemical that binds to receptors on brain cells to regulate emotion, anxiety, sleep, stress hormones, and other body functions that are disturbed in depression.

http://clinicalstudies.info.nih.gov/detail/A_2002-M-0162.html

How does serotonin effect depression
CLEVELAND: Depression investigators at The Research Institute of University Hospitals of Cleveland have zeroed in on the neurotransmitter serotonin, a brain chemical that regulates emotion. Their tactics: reduce serotonin levels in each study subject to learn who is vulnerable for developing major depression.
This new study, funded by the National Institute of Mental Health, is designed to help scientists better understand the role of serotonin in people who get major depression. By examining the way people feel when serotonin is briefly reduced, UHRI investigators hope to discover new ways of predicting who is at risk for major depression and when treatment with antidepressants can safely be discontinued, according to Pedro L. Delgado, MD.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2002-06/uhoc-hds061002.php


Sheesh!

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Hey, don't shoot the messenger!

Originally posted by Lorelei:

So the promise of peace from God is only available today in this century now that we have medication? Yes or no?

Of course not! However, studies have shown that these medicines CAN help. Is that the only thing depressed folks need? Absolutely not. If the individual doesn't correct the underlying spiritual issue they are dealing with, then the depression will in all likelihood recur.

I still say this is backwards treatment and simply allows the person to avoid the cause of the depression.

You can say what you want. You're entitled to your opinion. Seriously though, I agree--there are many of medicated folks out there who will temporarily feel better because of the medicine but who may not have faced the underlying cause. (You're preaching to the choir)

If I get mad, my heart beats faster. The physical thing that happened was because of my anger, my emotion. My emotion causes the physical, it's not the other way around. My heart will in turn stop beating fast when I calm down. I have to stop being angry to fix the problem. You can give me a medication to slow it down, but whatever is angering me is the REAL problem.

You make many valid points with which I agree. However, in longstanding clinical depression there have been studies (PET scans, etc) showing an alteration in brain activity which MAY not be readily (ie quickly) fixed by merely trying to "calm down"

Is God just a variable?

Where did that comment come from??? The point was that the spiritual issues each different individual is going through are variable. In other words, folks have different spiritual struggles in different stages of their lives.

This is proof right here from the medical profession. They place our physical well being before our spiritual well being. What should was as christians be more concerned with?

That is a complete misrepresentation of what I said! My point was there are physiological aspects to a person's depression and that medicine CAN (but not always) help with this. I never said there wasn't spiritual issues to be addressed, as I address these with some of my patients (the ones who are willing to listen).

You don't routinely run tests, how often have you run them?

~Lorelei

As often as I have to in order to RULE OUT other possible medical problems such as hypothyrodism, electrolyte disturbances, anemia, etc. This depends on if there are other historical clues or physical findings which may suggest these other causes.

Hope this helps.

 

[Molly]

Yes,I did a search on bipolar and it said it was based on mood swings. I'm trying to understand all these *new* names for things,but I do not give a lot of credibility to some of them...like I said,I do think there are some real mental illnesses out there that do need medical attention. But,mood swings....I'm not sure about that one. Mainly because I do not understand it.

Explain to me how it is a chemical imbalance if it is based on mood swings....or situations?

 

[Molly]

Originally posted by kate B...007:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I never said illness was caused by being in sin. I never said depression was caused by being in sin. I said depression is not an illness.

Then explain the evidence that it is cused by things like hormonal imballance, menopause, thyroid, preganacy?
Are these people in sin?
If someone you love dies you feel depressed are you in sin?

Katie,I just want to address the hormonal changes you are talking about...yes,they occur,but God';s word does not allow for us to become angry,bitter,ugly acting or any sinful behaviour because of those hormonal changes. Just because someone has PMS,they can not treat others wrongly,there is nothing in the Bible that says that is okay....just like someone who is depressed or whatever the case...sometimes people blame their behavior on their*condition*....I can't agree with your logic on this.


Rampage?
Nope I know your wrong, both medicine and the bible say that, and theres no sence in playing your righteous games. </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[donnA]

I will answer that from my own persepctive...God never promised we would not have headaches or anything else...he is more concenred with how we handle it...our character that is rooted in His word. We are to rejoice in ALL things,not just somethings.

That makes it sound like it is a choice. When it is not, it is byond the person ablinity to choose what goes on in their brain. So maybe if we are responsable for chemicl malfunctions in our brain, people with brain cancer or tumors has a choice also.
So is that to say a depressed person doesn't have charcter?
Your right, and God never promised us we would have any bodily malfunctions either, like chemical imballance.

Medical doctors are fine and I do appreciate how God has used medicine to help us....but....sometimes these mind altering medicines mask the real problems when it comes to psycholigical issues.

From some of the information I read, and I may have posted a link to it(don't remember for sure), there sre two classes of medication for depression,a dn only one class is addictive and moind altering. The other is not. And I am sorry, I can not remember the names of each of these classes of medication.

 

[donnA]

Lorelei
You know so much more then the doctors, and medical science, tell us, where did you get your medical degree? What university did you study at? What breakthrough research have you been a party to that eliminates what has already been discovered? Your the expert here, so give us your qualifications.

 

[donnA]

When a doctor tells you whats wrong with you,and what treatment you need, do you usally take the medication, or whatever treatment? Or do you tell him he doesn't know anything, you don't believe in medical science?

 

[Molly]

Yes,rejoicing in all things is a choice.

 

[Jim1999]

So, you rejoice is someone else's afflictions?

 

[Wisdom Seeker]

Molly, Here's a better link.
Medical description of Bi-Polar Disorder


Here's a small exerpt:
Symptoms of Bipolar Disorder

The severity of the depressive and manic phases can differ from person to person, and in the same person at different times.

During manic periods, people with bipolar disorder may:

* Be overly happy, hopeful, and excited
* Change suddenly from being joyful to being angry and hostile
* Behave in strange ways and have odd beliefs
* Become restless
* Talk rapidly
* Have a lot of energy and need less sleep
* Believe they have many skills and powers and can do anything
* Make grand plans
* Show poor judgment, such as deciding to quit a job, or spending excessive amounts of money
* Become headstrong, annoying, or demanding
* Become easily distracted
* Abuse drugs and alcohol
* Have a higher sex drive

Some patients can become psychotic, seeing and hearing things that aren't there and holding false beliefs from which they cannot be swayed. In many instances they see themselves as having superhuman skills and powers.

During depressive periods, people with bipolar disorder may:

* Feel empty, sad, or hopeless
* Feel guilty, worthless, or helpless
* Cry often
* Lose interest in things they usually enjoy, including sex
* Be unable to think clearly, make decisions, or remember things
* Sleep poorly
* Lose or gain weight
* Have low energy
* Abuse drugs and alcohol
* Complain of headaches, stomachaches, and other pains
* Become focused on death
* Attempt suicide

The dramatic and rapidly changing mood swings from highs to lows do not follow a set pattern, and depression does not always follow manic phases. A person with bipolar disorder may also experience the same mood state several times before suddenly experiencing the opposite mood. Mood swings can happen over a period of weeks, months, and sometimes even years. Bipolar disorder is a long-term illness that requires management throughout a person's life.

Now, I ask you honestly: have you not seen some of these characteristics when dealing with me? Listen, I didn't choose this, I inherited it. And I do rely on God. Believe me.

Laurenda

 

[Molly]

No,I have not seen this in you.

So,is this proven to be a chemical imbalance in the brain that needs medical attention/and/or drugs?

 

[Molly]

Originally posted by Jim1999:
So, you rejoice is someone else's afflictions?

I'm not sure I understand the question.

 

[Lorelei]

Molly,

Your posts have been encouraging and uplifting! Praise God that you see that He is all powerful and has all the answers for ALL of us! Thanks for sharing, I couldn't agree more with what you have said!

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

I was thinking today, it's no wonder why false doctrines are on the rise. Why people are out taking a look at Allah or wondering if they can actually become god themselves. When they look to the christian community, what more does it have to offer than the world does???

Well, let me tell you all, we SHOULD and DO have something to offer! God is the answer folks, like it or not, want to believe it or not HE IS GOD!! He is all powerful and He PROMISED us Victory Over Depression! Can I hear an AMEN?!!?!?!

The secular world is depressed and they are looking to the doctors and pill bottles and still they are not fixed, When they come in the church door, do they hear empty words about a Jesus who wants you to keep being dependant on man, or one who demonstrated the perfect life by living in dependancy upon His Father? Our Father, who art in Heaven is THE answer and I am sure glad the church I went to tonight shared that Loving God with us! The one that promised us that we could do ALL things through Christ who strengthens us! AMEN!

Somene mentioned David having depression. Let me read you what I read in church tonight, by this person, who yes at times was depressed, but from whence did he draw his strength? Upon whom did he call in his hour of need? Who heard his cry and and brought him out? Praise God of Heaven and Earth, who is powerful enough and loves us enough that he gave us that power in His Spirit!

Ps 62:1-2
My soul finds rest in God alone;
my salvation comes from him.
2 He alone is my rock and my salvation;
he is my fortress, I will never be shaken. ...

5 Find rest, O my soul, in God alone;
my hope comes from him.
6 He alone is my rock and my salvation;
he is my fortress, I will not be shaken.
7 My salvation and my honor depend on God;
he is my mighty rock, my refuge.
8 Trust in him at all times, O people;
pour out your hearts to him,
for God is our refuge.
NIV

I don't NEED a medical degree, I don't NEED a doctor, I don't NEED any man to tell me different. MY GOD is greater, MY GOD is more merciful and MY GOD has ALL the answers!

For everyone who says that God alone is NOT the answer you are in contradiction with the very Word of God you proclaim to believe. Like it or not, want to admit it or not, that is the truth. Either trust in God or in Man, but the option is not open to trust in both. Not when it comes to the mind. My mind is more than the tissue in my brain and MY mind is controlled by the Holy Spirit who gives me peace, joy, love and rest.

Are you depressed, come to Jesus, He said He would give you rest and He would give it to you freely!

Matt 11:28-30

28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
NIV

~Lorelei

 

[Madelyn Hope]

One thing I think it is important to remember is that when we talk about depression, anxiety, and other mental problems that we use these terms to cover a wide spectrum of situations. Depression can range from having a bad day to a life-threatening situation in which one is catatonic, completely immobile and uncapable of basic self-care. At some point along the spectrum, it shifts from a normal if unpleasant feeling of unhappiness to something that is more pathological. Where this point lies can be very subjective but in attempt to give us better tools in diagnosising mental health professionals rely on a variety of tests and criteria listed in the DSM-IV to help "classify" the patient's problems.

One of the leading schools of thought on mental illness is the biopsychosocial model in which mental illness is seen as the result of many factors -- genetics, environmental, and other factors. In some individuals one aspect may play a larger role than in others. Personally, I recognize that there is a spiritual aspect to this as well as do many of my future colleagues.

As for lab tests to diagnosis mental illness and track its progress, this is something that many researchers are busy working on. One difficulty in developing tests is that the underlying pathological processes are felt to be related to various imbalances of serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, and other neurotransmitters within in the central nervous system. Generally, these chemicals are made and broken down within the brain so that it is not possible at this time to really take a blood sample to measure them. Some efforts have focused on looking for the breakdown products within the cerebrospinal fluid, but such tests really aren't practical for general purposes at this time because obtaining the CSF requires a spinal tap which is an uncomfortable procedure that is not without risks. In addition, it isn't just that the amounts of a particular chemical is "off" but that the levels are off within various regions of the brain and just looking at the fluid doesn't give us any information about how the chemical of interest is distributed within the brain.

Another thing to bring up is that as a physician in training I'm often reminded that we treat patients not lab values. Treatment of congestive heart failure, for example, relies much on the patient's report of symptoms such as shortness of breath; lab tests and imaging studies such as echocardiograms can add to the picture but they don't tell the whole story by themselves.

This post is already very long, but if any one is interested I would be happy to post here the specific criteria used to give a diagnosis of bipolar disorder when I have more time.

 

[Thankful]

Lorelei

And yes, I didn't just feel a little anxious about something, I had attacks that made me feel like I was about to experience death. I couldn't breath, my heart was out of wack and I couldn't control my mind it was realing beyond control. I know what I am talking about here and I know I was able to obey God's Word and NOT be anxious when I focused my thoughts and mind on Christ.

This is wonderful that you were able to do this and recover without additional help. I am glad that you shared this with us as it will give hope to those who are struggling with panic attacks.

My mind is more than the tissue in my brain and MY mind is controlled by the Holy Spirit who gives me peace, joy, love and rest.

We are all agreeing with you.

MY GOD is greater, MY GOD is more merciful and MY GOD has ALL the answers!

Again we agree with you.

No one is disagreeing with you about the power of God. He is all powerful. He promises us that:

For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:7.


This does not mean that we will not have a spirit of fear. It means He didn't give it to us.

In no way does He say that we should not seek the help of others, whether it be medical, support group,or medicine. He gives us Christian doctors and counselors. He tells us we are to care for one another. We are to comfort one another.

Many people have pointed out on this thread that the medical profession is researching and making new discoveries in the matter of mental illness.

There is so much about the brain and its power that we do not understand.

We pray that God will guide these people to find the solutions and treatments for mental ill people.