Devotion to Mary 2

[Marcia]

Not so. The practice of intercessory prayer is limited to the intercessor praying to God. In other words, asking St Francis to pray for me. If I were to ask St Francis to perform a supernatural act, then yes, it woudl be necromancy.

That said, I am not a proponent of intercessory prayer. I believe scripture calls upon believers to cast their prayers upon the Father. But my disdain for intercessory prayer does not mean it fits the definition of necromancy.

That's correct. But since intercessory prayer is not an act of communicating, then it disqualifies it as being either divination or necromancy.

I never said intercessory prayer to Mary is necromancy; it may or may not be, but I did not make that statement. I was correcting your definition of necromancy.

However, I disagree with you here that intercessory prayer is "not an act of communicating." Prayer is communicating! We are petitioning someone to respond in some way (unless it is just a prayer of thanks).

 

[Johnv]

I never said intercessory prayer to Mary is necromancy; it may or may not be, but I did not make that statement. I was correcting your definition of necromancy.

Granted. Point taken.

However, I disagree with you here that intercessory prayer is "not an act of communicating."

It's not two way, it's one way. Hence, it's not communicating.

Prayer is communicating!

It can be, and usually is. But it is not exclusively. In the same manner that hearing is not listening, simply talking is not communicating. And believe me, I know a lot of people who talk to God, but don't listen. They're not communicating with him, though they probably think they are.

 

[Marcia]

It's not two way, it's one way. Hence, it's not communicating.

It can be, and usually is. But it is not exclusively. In the same manner that hearing is not listening, simply talking is not communicating. And believe me, I know a lot of people who talk to God, but don't listen. They're not communicating with him, though they probably think they are.

Communication can be just one way. When people pray to Mary, do you think they are not trying to communicate with her?

 

[Johnv]

Communication can be just one way.

Any marriage therapist will tell you differently Seriously, though, communication by definition is two way, and requires an interchange. If it's one way, it's not communication by definition.

 

[DHK]

Any marriage therapist will tell you differently Seriously, though, communication by definition is two way, and requires an interchange. If it's one way, it's not communication by definition.

By definition, Prayer is talking to God; or communicating with God.

A good example:
1 Samuel 1:12-13 And it came to pass, as she continued praying before the LORD, that Eli marked her mouth.
13 Now Hannah, she spake in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard: therefore Eli thought she had been drunken.

 

[Johnv]

By definition, Prayer is talking to God; or communicating with God.

Off topic a little, but prayer is talking to God, AND listening to Him. Talking without listening isn't communication, it's pontificating.

 

[DHK]

Off topic a little, but prayer is talking to God, AND listening to Him. Talking without listening isn't communication, it's pontificating.

And how do you listen John?

 

[Johnv]

And how do you listen John?

That's probably a bit off topic. I think we could have a whole thread on how to listed to God speaking to you, of numerous pages. SUffice it to say our problem as Christians usually isn't "how" we listen, it's whether we listen or not.

 

[DHK]

That's probably a bit off topic. I think we could have a whole thread on how to listed to God speaking to you, of numerous pages. SUffice it to say our problem as Christians usually isn't "how" we listen, it's whether we listen or not.

No, that is not the topic.
Prayer is talking to God. It has nothing to do with listening to God. We allow God to speak to us through his Word. However, we go to Him through prayer. We talk or communicate to God through prayer. That is the only way.

By way of example, George Mueller, who ran an orphanage in England for many years lived a life of faith. He was a man of prayer. His life demonstrated that over and over again God answered prayer without communicating back to Mueller. He prayed over 40 years for the salvation of two close friends. Not until after his death did one of those friends come to Christ. How did God communicate to him then? Prayer does not always involve two-way communication. Prayer is talking to God.

When Catholics "talk to Mary," pray to her, it is idolatry. They put her in the position of God. God alone is worthy of our prayers.

 

[Johnv]

Prayer is talking to God. It has nothing to do with listening to God.

Uh, ok, I feel sorry for your prayer life, but okay.

 

[DHK]

Uh, ok, I feel sorry for your prayer life, but okay.

It has nothing to do with my prayer life; it has to do with definition of words.

 

[Johnv]

It has nothing to do with my prayer life; it has to do with definition of words.

Ok, then, we're on the same page.

Communication is defined as an exchange of information. It's two way, hence the "co" prefix. It is not defined as simply delivering information one way.

If prayer is by definition communication, then it requires the recipient of the prayer respond. But prayer is not by definition two way communication. That said, a person's prayer life with God should be two way, not one way.

 

[Marcia]

Communication can be two-way but it is also one way. If I write a letter to someone, I have communicated with them, whether or not they respond.

If I tell someone something, I have communicated with that person, whether or not they respond.

 

[Johnv]

Communication can be two-way but it is also one way. If I write a letter to someone, I have communicated with them, whether or not they respond.

I would have thought the same thing, and then I found out that I had to take a communication class in college. My professor would have disagreed with your statement. Two way information is communication. One way information is dissertation or monologue.