Devotion to Mary 2

[Revmitchell]

And to think. I was hoping you'd actually have a respectful discussion rather than engage in epithets. Must have been too much to ask for.

because your statement is extreme and goes to far. The word "silliness" is not intended as you describe but simply and expression of the nature of your words.

Here's the problem. There are a lot of people who pray to God, but don't worship Him. Worship and prayer are not synonymous.

You continue to avoid the nature of prayer. Just because someone claims to pray to God does not mean it is valid.

You're full of personal insults today, aren't you. I was hoping you were more mature than that. Silly of me to expect matury in conversation from you.

Anyhoo, like I said, the Israelites chose to make the image of Hapis, an egyptial deity. Scripture doen't name Hapis by name (it just says a golden calf), but anyone in the day who saw a calf would have recognized it as Hapis.

Saying you do not know scripture is not an insult. Just because the image was similar to another God is not enough info to determine their intent. When you look at the passage involved in this event it becomes clear. You really need to study it further.

The word God's used in reference to the calf is Elohim (Exodus 32:4). And second Arron makes reference to Elohim who delivered them out of Egypt.

 

[Marcia]

Still, it wasn't the little wafers and grape juice we use today. My point (so as not to derail the thread) is that it's inconcistent for us to criticize Catholic or Orthodox practices for differing from the way scripture laid them out, while we ourselves have practices which differ from the way scripture laid them out.

I think how one views the Lord's Supper is very significant. The use of wafers and grape juice vs. wine is not a view of what the Lord's Supper is, it is just a method. So the problem is not the method but the theological view.

The problem with the Catholic communion is their view of the Eucharist as the actual body and blood of Christ. And they worship the Eucharist.

 

[Johnv]

The word God's used in reference to the calf is Elohim (Exodus 32:4).

THe word isn't referring to the God of Moses. "Elohim" here is a generic word which simpyl means "deity". Aaron is saying "this is the god (or these are the gods) which brought you out of Egypt." All translations render it as such: to a false deity, and not to the God of Moses.

So it's obvious I know scripture quite well in this passage.

 

[Marcia]

So I think we're all in agreement that "talking to" a deceased person isn't the same thing as "prayer". Okay.

The other question that comes to mind is how does "praying" differentiate from "worship". They're obviously not the same, but now are they different? Anyone?

Talking to a dead person is one thing (but is a problem if you think they hear you) but praying involves expectation that the person hears you and can act in response. If one prays to Mary, one is assuming she hears you (and can hear everyone who is praying to her, maybe at the same time), and that she can respond. This is what people do who pray to Mary. They ask her to intercede for them. She is their mediator between them and God or between them and Jesus. This is at least in the category of worship because they are treating her as a goddess, basically.

 

[Revmitchell]

THe word isn't referring to the God of Moses. "Elohim" here is a generic word which simpyl means "deity". Aaron is saying "this is the god (or these are the gods) which brought you out of Egypt." All translations render it as such: to a false deity, and not to the God of Moses.

So it's obvious I know scripture quite well in this passage.

No they don't

 

[Johnv]

No they don't

Yes, they do:
KJV: These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
NIV: These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.
NASB: This is your god, O Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt
RSV: These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt.
NLT: O Israel, these are the gods who brought you out of the land of Egypt.

 

[DHK]

Talking to Mary is praying to Mary (refer to "Hail Mary").
For Catholics to pray to Mary is to make Mary a god.
There are over a billion Catholics world-wide, all praying to Mary, all saying the rosary, all over this world.
How can Mary hear all the prayers of all one billion Catholics spread all over the world at the same time? How can she answer them? How can she know what they are?
What are the Catholics doing?
They are attributing to Mary: omnipresence and omniscience; two attributes that belong to God alone. Having done this they have made Mary a god, for God alone has these attributes. Praying and worshiping Mary; adoring her, asking her to intercede on their behalf is idolatry, a violation of the Ten Commandments. This is all contained in that one little prayer said over and over again (53 times on the rosary alone) by almost every Catholic: "The Hail Mary."

 

[Johnv]

For Catholics to pray to Mary is to make Mary a god.

That's not it. For Catholics, praying to a deceased individual is not making that eprson a deity god. To many noncatholics, it is. Hence the discussion here.

 

[Revmitchell]

Yes, they do:
KJV: These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
NIV: These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.
NASB: This is your god, O Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt
RSV: These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt.
NLT: O Israel, these are the gods who brought you out of the land of Egypt.

You assume to much. The word "god" little "g" can denote the representation of the true God. In vs. 5 Arron specifically mentions Jehovah capital "L"

 

[DHK]

That's not it. For Catholics, praying to a deceased individual is not making that eprson a deity god. To many noncatholics, it is. Hence the discussion here.

First, to pray to a deceased individual is condemned in the Bible as spiritism, dabbling in the occult, and necromancy. Right there you have violated a whole slew of prohibition, all of which can fall under idolatry.
Secondly, praying to anyone other than God, the Lord of lords, the Lord Jesus Christ, Creator of Heaven and earth, our Lord and Saviour, to Him alone, is indeed idolatry. There is only one God. He alone deserves our worship. Prayer indeed is a form of worship. To pray to another is to worship another. Praying to Mary is idolatry. There is no way around it. It doesn't matter one whit what a Catholic says; our standard is what the Bible says. According to the Bible it is sin; it is idolatry.

 

[Johnv]

First, to pray to a deceased individual is condemned in the Bible as spiritism, dabbling in the occult, and necromancy.

The definition of necromancy is one of two-way communication with the individual in question. Catholicism doesn't expect the one prayed to to respond back to them, so it categorically doesn't fit the definition of necromancy.

Again, I'm not an advocate of praying to deceased saints, but I think some of the arguments against ot from Protestantism are a bit weak, and I think this is one of them.

The best argument against praying to saints is that the NT calls us to cast our prayers to the Father and to Him alone.

 

[Marcia]

The definition of necromancy is one of two-way communication with the individual in question. Catholicism doesn't expect the one prayed to to respond back to them, so it categorically doesn't fit the definition of necromancy.

Again, I'm not an advocate of praying to deceased saints, but I think some of the arguments against ot from Protestantism are a bit weak, and I think this is one of them.

The best argument against praying to saints is that the NT calls us to cast our prayers to the Father and to Him alone.

Necromancy is actually divination via (alleged) communication with the dead. Consulting the dead via mediums is also forbidden, as this is a (supposed) way to seek information instead of asking God (as in Is. 8:19-20).

If passages that forbid any attempt to contact the dead, or to consult those who contact the dead denounce these practices so strongly, how can we think it is okay to pray to the dead?

Even worse, praying to Mary puts in her a position of being a deity, since only God can hear everyone's prayers at once and can respond. It doesn't matter if people who pray to her say she is not God, or a god, or a deity, they are acting as though she is. Moreover, praying to Mary makes Mary an intercessor, in place of Jesus Christ, who is the only mediator between man and God, as God's word tells us. This to me is even worse than necromancy.

 

[Johnv]

Necromancy is actually divination via (alleged) communication with the dead.

That's not true. Divination is the notion of getting information from a deceased person. The Catholic practice of intercessory prayer is not one of the intercessor communicating back to the one praying. Hence, it doesn't qualify as divination. Again, I'm not an advocate of praying to deceased saints, but the necromancy/divination argument against the practice is a weak argument.

 

[Marcia]

That's not true. Divination is the notion of getting information from a deceased person. The Catholic practice of intercessory prayer is not one of the intercessor communicating back to the one praying. Hence, it doesn't qualify as divination.

JohnV, I wrote a glossary of occult terms. Necromancy is divination by consulting the dead; there are many forms of divination (hint: many of these terms end in "mancy" such as geomancy, tasseomancy, arithmancy, and others).

acultomancy divination using needles aeromancy divination by means of the weather ailuromancy divination by watching cats’ movements alectormancy divination by sacrificing a rooster alectryomancy divination by watching a rooster gather corn kernels aleuromancy divination using flour or meal alomancy divination using salt alphitomancy divination using loaves of barley alveromancy divination using sounds ambulomancy divination by taking a walk amniomancy divination by examining afterbirth anthomancy divination using flowers anthracomancy divination using burning coals anthropomancy divination using human entrails apantomancy divination using objects at hand arithmancy divination using numbers armomancy divination by examining one’s shoulders aspidomancy divination by sitting and chanting within a circle astragalomancy divination using dice or knucklebones astromancy divination using stars austromancy divination using wind axinomancy divination using an axe or hatchet batraquomancy divination using frogs belomancy divination by means of arrows bibliomancy divination by opening a book at random botanomancy divination using burning branches or plants brontomancy divination using thunder capnomancy divination by means of smoke cartomancy telling fortunes using playing cards catoptromancy divination by examining mirror placed underwater causimancy divination by means of fire ceneromancy divination using ashes cephalonomancy divination by boiling an ass head ceraunomancy divination using thunderbolts ceraunoscopy divination using lightning ceromancy divination by means of wax drippings ceroscopy divination using wax chaomancy divination by examining phenomena of the air chirognomy divination by studying the hands chiromancy divination by means of palmistry chronomancy divination by means of time cleidomancy divination using keys cleromancy divination using dice conchomancy divination using shells coscinomancy divination using a sieve and a pair of shears crithomancy divination by strewing meal over sacrifices critomancy divination using viands and cakes cromnyomancy divination using onions crystallomancy divination by means of clear objects crystalomancy divination using a crystal globe cubomancy divination by throwing dice dactyliomancy divination by means of a finger dactylomancy divination using rings daphnomancy divination using a laurel demonomancy divination using demons dririmancy divination by observing dripping blood emonomancy divination using demons enoptromancy divination using mirrors eromancy divination using water vessels extispicy divination using entrails floromancy belief that flowers have feelings gastromancy divination by sounds from the belly geloscopy fortune-telling by means of laughter geomancy divination by casting earth onto a surface grafology divination by studying writing graptomancy divination by studying handwriting gyromancy divination by falling from dizziness halomancy divination using salt haruspication divination by inspecting animal entrails hematomancy divination using blood hepatoscopy divination by examining animal livers hieromancy divination by studying objects offered in sacrifice hieroscopy divination using entrails hippomancy divination using horses hydromancy divination using water hypnomancy divination using sleep ichnomancy divination using footprints ichthyomancy divination by inspecting fish entrails iconomancy divination using icons idolomancy divination using idols kephalonomancy divination using a baked ass’s head keraunoscopia divination using thunder knissomancy divination using burning incense labiomancy lip reading lampadomancy divination by flame lecanomancy divination using water in a basin or pool libanomancy divination by watching incense smoke lithomancy divination by stones or meteorites logarithmancy divination by means of algorithms logomancy divination using words macromancy divination using large objects maculomancy divination using spots margaritomancy divination using pearls mathemancy divination by counting meconomancy divination using sleep meteoromancy divination by studying meteors metopomancy divination using the forehead or face metoposcopy fortune-telling or judgement of character by the lines of the forehead micromancy divination using small objects myomancy divination from the movements of mice narcomancy divination using sleep necyomancy divination by summoning Satan nomancy divination by examining letters of name odontomancy divination using teeth oenomancy divination by studying appearance of wine oinomancy divination using wine ololygmancy fortune-telling by the howling of dogs omoplatoscopy divination by observing cracks in burning scapulae omphalomancy divination from the knots in the umbilical cord oneiromancy divination by dreams onomancy divination using a donkey or ass

That is only half the list.

 

[Marcia]

onomancy divination using proper names onychomancy divination by the fingernails onymancy divination by the fingernails oomancy divination using eggs ophidiomancy divination using snakes ophiomancy divination by watching snakes ornithomancy divination by observing flight of birds oryctomancy divination using excavated objects ossomancy divination using bones osteomancy divination using bones ouranomancy divination using the heavens pedomancy divination by examining the soles of the feet pegomancy divination by springs or fountains pessomancy divination using pebbles phyllomancy divination using leaves or tea leaves physiognomancy divination by studying the face psephomancy divination by drawing lots or markers at random psychomancy divination by means of spirits pyromancy divination using fire retromancy divination by looking over one’s shoulder rhabdomancy divination using a rod or stick rhapsodomancy divination by opening works of poetry at random scapulomancy divination by examining burnt shoulder blade scatomancy divination by studying excrement scatoscopy divination by studying excrement; scatomancy schematomancy divination using the human form sciomancy divination using ghosts scyphomancy divination by means of a cup selenomancy divination by studying the moon sideromancy divination using stars; divination by burning straws sortilege divination by drawing lots spasmatomancy divination by twitching or convulsions of the body spatilomancy divination by means of feces spheromancy divination using a crystal ball spodomancy divination by means of ashes stercomancy fortune-telling by studying seeds in dung stichomancy divination by picking passages from books at random stolisomancy divination by observing how one dresses oneself sycomancy divination using fig leaves tephromancy divination by ashes theomancy divination by means of oracles thrioboly divination using pebbles thumomancy divination by means of one's own soul tiromancy divination using cheese topomancy divination using landforms trochomancy divination by studying wheel tracks tyromancy divination using cheese uranomancy divination by studying the heavens urimancy divination by observing urine xenomancy divination using strangers xylomancy divination by examining wood found in one’s path zoomancy
divination by observing animals

http://phrontistery.info/divine.html

 

[Johnv]

That doesn't change the fact that the Catholic practice of intercessory prayer does not categorically fit the definition of divination.

 

[annsni]

According to Merriam Webster's dictionary, necromancy is: "conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events" So I do believe that praying to deceased persons would fall under this category since one would be seeking to influence the course of events by doing so.

 

[DHK]

That's not true. Divination is the notion of getting information from a deceased person. The Catholic practice of intercessory prayer is not one of the intercessor communicating back to the one praying. Hence, it doesn't qualify as divination. Again, I'm not an advocate of praying to deceased saints, but the necromancy/divination argument against the practice is a weak argument.

Catholics used to pray to St. Christopher in order that St. Christopher would keep them safe while traveling. They expected that St. Christopher would answer back in keeping them safe.
Catholics petition Mary often for various requests expecting Mary to "answer back," and fulfill their requests, not necessarily in an audible voice, though many claim they have seen Mary in a vision, and heard "her voice."

 

[Marcia]

necromancy:

The practice of supposedly communicating with the spirits of the dead in order to predict the future

From Merriam-Webster:
: conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of event

a method of divination through alleged communication with the dead

The practice of supposedly communicating with the spirits of the dead in order to predict the future.

There are more if I had time to post them.

I didn't say communicating with Mary was necromancy. I said that the definition of necromancy was divination via alleged communication with the dead, and I am right.

Divination is a broader category and includes astrology, palm reading, numerology (also known as arithmancy), tarot cards, using a pendulum, reading patterns in the way arrows fall (this was done in bible times), patterns in the way birds fly, etc.

There are thousands of forms of divination. Divination is trying to gain information through reading hidden meanings in the natural world, through images, through numbers, through the dead, through psychic powers, through contact with spirits, etc.

Divination can overlap with other occult categories.

 

[Johnv]

Not so. The practice of intercessory prayer is limited to the intercessor praying to God. In other words, asking St Francis to pray for me. If I were to ask St Francis to perform a supernatural act, then yes, it woudl be necromancy.

That said, I am not a proponent of intercessory prayer. I believe scripture calls upon believers to cast their prayers upon the Father. But my disdain for intercessory prayer does not mean it fits the definition of necromancy.

I didn't say communicating with Mary was necromancy. I said that the definition of necromancy was divination via alleged communication with the dead, and I am right.

That's correct. But since intercessory prayer is not an act of communicating, then it disqualifies it as being either divination or necromancy.