Devotion to Mary 2

[DHK]

Who is that 'cloud of witnesses' referenced in Hebrews? How does their knowledge of my life and my needs become worship?

That's a red herring. Where did that come from? And what does it have to do with worship?

 

[DHK]

St. Paul ran into this 'casual partaking' of the Eucharist in the Corrinthian Church, eh? He made it pretty clear that the bread we break and the cup we bless IS what Jesus said it is!

We got a local American Baptist pastor that doesn't believe in Hell! Many people don't until they get there.

There is no eucharist in the Bible, at least not the way the Catholics or Anglicans define the word. Eucharist, as the Catholics define the word is heresy.

 

[Johnv]

Communion in scripture was part of a meal, in which those at the meal served and consumed table bread and table wine, the kind of bread and wine one would find at any meal. It wasn't just the crackers and grape juice we commonly utilize today.

 

[lori4dogs]

There is no eucharist in the Bible, at least not the way the Catholics or Anglicans define the word. Eucharist, as the Catholics define the word is heresy.

This has been discussed ad nauseum on this board for years.

 

[DHK]

This has been discussed ad nauseum on this board for years.

For one who has joined here just one year ago, and has posted only 39 times in that time period, how would you know that?

 

[DHK]

Communion in scripture was part of a meal, in which those at the meal served and consumed table bread and table wine, the kind of bread and wine one would find at any meal. It wasn't just the crackers and grape juice we commonly utilize today.

If it had to symbolize the body and blood of the Lord Jesus Christ it had to be a certain kind of cracker and a certain kind of "wine". But that is a subject for another thread. Let's not derail this one.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Communion in scripture was part of a meal, in which those at the meal served and consumed table bread and table wine, the kind of bread and wine one would find at any meal. It wasn't just the crackers and grape juice we commonly utilize today.

If it was based on the Passover sader I think it was a little more than that.

 

[Revmitchell]

Oh, I think you get my point! If a person is kneeling and praying in front of anything, don't assume they are worshiping an object.

If you are praying to that object or its representation then you are worshiping. The Jews in the wilderness were not trying to worship a false God when they made the golden calf.

 

[lori4dogs]

For one who has joined here just one year ago, and has posted only 39 times in that time period, how would you know that?

Well, you don't have to be a member to read threads on this board, just to post on it. I've been following your threads for years.

 

[Johnv]

If it was based on the Passover sader I think it was a little more than that.

Still, it wasn't the little wafers and grape juice we use today. My point (so as not to derail the thread) is that it's inconcistent for us to criticize Catholic or Orthodox practices for differing from the way scripture laid them out, while we ourselves have practices which differ from the way scripture laid them out.

 

[Johnv]

If you are praying to that object or its representation then you are worshiping.

Therein lies the dichotomy. If one considers praying to be worship, then it is idolatry, regardless of whether an object exists. If, otoh, one differentiates between praying and worship, then the simple act of praying is not an act of idolatry.

A bit off topic, but if a man's wife dies, leaving him a widow, and he visits her gravesite and talks to her, is that idolatry?

The Jews in the wilderness were not trying to worship a false God when they made the golden calf.

Actually, they were trying to do so. They weren't just looking for a symbol that represents the God of Moses. Their intent was to worship a deity other than the God of Moses.

 

[BobRyan]

This is where I come in. I've heard the term "mother of God" used quite a bit.

I must also say that NOBODY has ever said that Mary is the mother of the Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

Who is Jesus? Answer: God.

I have no problem with the term "mother of God" if it is being used to defend the deity of Christ.

Check this out. It does talk about some of the translation difficulties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theotokos

Again, I've never run into a Roman Catholic that says Mary is the Mother of the Trinity.

But there is a lot we can learn from Mary: A messenger came, she believed, and God was in her.

In the Bible Mary is never called "Mother of God"

Joseph is never called "teacher of God"

Joseph is never called "protector of God".

The reason is obvious -- such language creates more confusion about the exaulted role of Mary and/or Joseph than it does to emphasize that Jesus was the God man.

The result is that those who leap off that cliff of "Mother of God" will then go one to "Queen of the Universe" and "Sinless like God" and "all powerful like God" and "assumed into heaven like God" and "Co-redemptrix with God" etc.

The slippery slope if you will.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Actually, they were trying to do so. They weren't just looking for a symbol that represents the God of Moses. Their intent was to worship a deity other than the God of Moses.

That is not entirely clear. The Hebrews had just come out of a pagan culture where the gods that were worshipped -- had an image that was made into an idol.

Given the events of Exodus 20 -- and the fact that they are still there at the burning mountain - waiting for Moses to come down after talking to the Hebrew God -- they were likely asking Aaron to give them an image to their newly re-found god. Still it is idolatry.

And that is the problem that I think the RCC must struggle with - since it is then the same thing as the RCC does today.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Thinkingstuff]

In the Bible Mary is never called "Mother of God"

Joseph is never called "teacher of God"

Joseph is never called "protector of God".

The reason is obvious -- such language creates more confusion about the exaulted role of Mary and/or Joseph than it does to emphasize that Jesus was the God man.

The result is that those who leap off that cliff of "Mother of God" will then go one to "Queen of the Universe" and "Sinless like God" and "all powerful like God" and "assumed into heaven like God" and "Co-redemptrix with God" etc.

The slippery slope if you will.

in Christ,

Bob

Jesus isn't called to be homoosious with the father or
Jesus isn't said to have a hypostatic union either. yet......

 

[annsni]

Therein lies the dichotomy. If one considers praying to be worship, then it is idolatry, regardless of whether an object exists. If, otoh, one differentiates between praying and worship, then the simple act of praying is not an act of idolatry.

A bit off topic, but if a man's wife dies, leaving him a widow, and he visits her gravesite and talks to her, is that idolatry?

Actually, they were trying to do so. They weren't just looking for a symbol that represents the God of Moses. Their intent was to worship a deity other than the God of Moses.

See, I've done that - talked to my mom (though not at her grave). However, I have no thought that she actually hears me at all nor that she can do things for me. It's just more for my comfort than anything else.

But to talk to her (praying) and expecting her to do something to change the course of nature or God's workings is absolutely worship IMO. That would need an intercessor - and we know through Scripture that there is one intercessor between God and man - Jesus Christ. If there were more, then Scripture would tell us so.

 

[Johnv]

That is not entirely clear. The Hebrews had just come out of a pagan culture where the gods that were worshipped -- had an image that was made into an idol.

It was more than that. In Egypt of the day, the golden calf was a representation of the mythical god Hapis, whom the Egyptians worshipped. The Hebrews would have known this, and, for reasons not mentione din Exodus, chose to make Hapis the center of worship instead of the God of Moses. Anyhoo, that's all a different topic, albeit an interesting one.

 

[Revmitchell]

Therein lies the dichotomy. If one considers praying to be worship, then it is idolatry, regardless of whether an object exists. If, otoh, one differentiates between praying and worship, then the simple act of praying is not an act of idolatry.

Such silliness. Trying to isolate prayer to such a narrow definition while working to remove the nature of it eg. to petition God for provision and praise, is spurious and obvious.

A bit off topic, but if a man's wife dies, leaving him a widow, and he visits her gravesite and talks to her, is that idolatry?

This fails to admit the nature of prayer and works to disingenuously reduce it to an act of talking.

Actually, they were trying to do so. They weren't just looking for a symbol that represents the God of Moses. Their intent was to worship a deity other than the God of Moses.

You do err because you do not know scripture.

 

[Johnv]

Such silliness.

And to think. I was hoping you'd actually have a respectful discussion rather than engage in epithets. Must have been too much to ask for.

Trying to isolate prayer to such a narrow definition while working to remove the nature of it eg. to petition God for provision and praise, is spurious and obvious.

Here's the problem. There are a lot of people who pray to God, but don't worship Him. Worship and prayer are not synonymous.

This fails to admit the nature of prayer and works to disingenuously reduce it to an act of talking.

I wasn't maing a comment either way. I was simply asking the question. My personal position is that the act of simply talking to a deceased person is not akin to prayer, but that's just me.

You do err because you do not know scripture.

You're full of personal insults today, aren't you. I was hoping you were more mature than that. Silly of me to expect matury in conversation from you.

Anyhoo, like I said, the Israelites chose to make the image of Hapis, an egyptial deity. Scripture doen't name Hapis by name (it just says a golden calf), but anyone in the day who saw a calf would have recognized it as Hapis.

 

[annsni]

My personal position is that the act of simply talking to a deceased person is not akin to prayer, but that's just me.

Talking to a dead person is not prayer. Talking to a dead person with the expectation that they will hear you and act on what you're saying IS prayer, IMO.

 

[Johnv]

So I think we're all in agreement that "talking to" a deceased person isn't the same thing as "prayer". Okay.

The other question that comes to mind is how does "praying" differentiate from "worship". They're obviously not the same, but now are they different? Anyone?