Apparently you don't know what worship is, or are afraid to give a Biblical definition of it. A Catholic has no qualms about bowing down and praying to such a picture (a religious one, such as Mary). That is idolatry. It is worship. Prayer to such is worship.
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Devotion to Mary 2
- Thread starter Jkdbuck76
- Start date
It is both.
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
--Don't make them.
Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
--Don't bow down to them or worship them.
Don't you love it when the Bible is so clear on this issue.
Then, according to you, this person is committing idolatry:
Absolutely. If you had asked me in the first 20 years of my life if I was committing idolatry, I would have denied. But I look back now and see plainly, that according to Scripture, it is and always has been idolatry. We do not define things according to RCC definitions, but rather by how the Bible defines it.
Are you denying the truth set forth in Exodus 20:4.
That sounds pretty clear to me.
Exodus 25 describes the Temple of the OT.
Tell me. Where is the temple of the NT?
Then, according to you, this person is committing idolatry:
I agree with DHK - That is idolatry. I don't bow down to a crucifix. I don't even bow to a cross. My Jesus is risen and no longer on the cross.
He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it." 2 Kings 18:4.
I gotta give you guys points for consistency. Not all Christians are so consistent.
Still, I stand on my prior post that simply creating a cross, crucific, statue, painting, etc, is not idolatrous. According to DHK, the simple creation of such a thing is idolatrous. If that is so, we should remove the cross from our churches, since they qualify as graven images.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
This is true and I do think it applies to Catholics.
Why not? This is what they do. They make a graven image (Mary), bow down before it, pray before it (worship it). This is idolatry. It is the same. If this were OT times surely God would make an outward display of his anger. But this is an age of Grace.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
God hates idolatry.
1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
hmm, I must have read that statement wrong. That happens to me sometimes.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
I think it applies to Catholics because even if Mary was all of those things Catholics believe about her she like John the Baptist would diminish so that Jesus would be increased in the life of the believer. I think that the Laity in fact not understanding their faith hold to the Marian devotions and do treat her like Hera or Juno in their understanding of their faith. Now this isn't true for all Catholics but we can't get past the point that there are Catholics who pray to Mary continuously and only pray to Jesus at Mass. In fact in my country of Heritage they have a day that resembles christmas that is devoted only to Mary on December 7th. Like the serpent that shows God's forgiveness and Healing She may have been lifted up in the minds of many Lay Catholics and worshiped rather than leading the worship to the appropiate place.
So lets take Catholic Doctrine of Mary at Face value and assume it is all true.
Mary is immaculately conceived. That logically would only put her in the state Adam was first created. Giving here total autonomous free will and she could willingly have sinned. However, the Catholic Doctrine with regard to "Full of Grace" would indicate constance maintenance of her perfection by God (holy spirit) in an anticipation for the Incarnation. Assume She is the "Queen of Heaven" and Assume she received the resurrection earlier than any of us and is now praying for us in heaven. Then in context of these beliefs we would assume then being perfect and protected by God her wish is to lead us to Christ himself. Also Jesus said that who ever would be great in God's kingdom would be least. So the action of one so holy and devoted to God would be to uplift Jesus constantly that if they were disregarded so that Jesus would be Glorified would be an honor to them. Paul and the apostles all would become nothing that "some" would be saved. So the fact that Christ is ignored by some Catholics in favor of Mary would seem to here to be missing the point of all these things. I think if all these things about Mary were true then her heart would not be offended at being neglected in devotion but exulting in that Christ is lifted up. This is the Motiff of the Saints of God why would it be different to her? So she is being worship by some in the Catholic Church as the serpent was by the Jews. In short to Honor Mary is to Honor Christ because she said "I am the Handmaid of the Lord. Be it to me as you have said". Her obedience and submission is the spirit of Mary and should be ours.
So lets take Catholic Doctrine of Mary at Face value and assume it is all true.
Mary is immaculately conceived. That logically would only put her in the state Adam was first created. Giving here total autonomous free will and she could willingly have sinned. However, the Catholic Doctrine with regard to "Full of Grace" would indicate constance maintenance of her perfection by God (holy spirit) in an anticipation for the Incarnation. Assume She is the "Queen of Heaven" and Assume she received the resurrection earlier than any of us and is now praying for us in heaven. Then in context of these beliefs we would assume then being perfect and protected by God her wish is to lead us to Christ himself. Also Jesus said that who ever would be great in God's kingdom would be least. So the action of one so holy and devoted to God would be to uplift Jesus constantly that if they were disregarded so that Jesus would be Glorified would be an honor to them. Paul and the apostles all would become nothing that "some" would be saved. So the fact that Christ is ignored by some Catholics in favor of Mary would seem to here to be missing the point of all these things. I think if all these things about Mary were true then her heart would not be offended at being neglected in devotion but exulting in that Christ is lifted up. This is the Motiff of the Saints of God why would it be different to her? So she is being worship by some in the Catholic Church as the serpent was by the Jews. In short to Honor Mary is to Honor Christ because she said "I am the Handmaid of the Lord. Be it to me as you have said". Her obedience and submission is the spirit of Mary and should be ours.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Neither however if you hear him pray this:
Ave Cathedra! Gratia Plena. Dominus Tecum. Benidicta tu in Muleribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus. Sancta Cathedra, Mater Dei. Ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen :tongue3:
You may have problems. I'm talking about the not properly Catachized Catholics who do worship Mary like in my country of Heritage( not my country of birth or Citizenship). Have you ever heard of Purisima? I think you should read the statement closely. Note I don't claim this for all Catholics but for those who aren't understanding their faith. These are the same that show up at an oil stain under a bridge claiming its the virgin. These are those I'm referring to. And it is these who make the same mistake as those who worship the serpent in the OT whether you read it from the LXX or the Massoretic text.
I agree with you. My sister moved to Mexico years ago as a Baptist missionary (she is now Catholic) and ran into this. She became a Catholic after much study of the Catholic catechism.
I was a Baptist myself for many years and as a result of reading the various threads on the Catholic faith over the years on The Baptist Board became a Catholic Christian myself. Carson Weber's contributions were the clearest explanations of what it means to be a Catholic Christian.
Most of the Baptist churches in my area have lost their theological moorings. Some are still about the business of winning souls for Jesus but the majority are pretty liberal and dying. Sad!
The Catholic Churches here are standing room only with more churches being built. Every three months a large evangelistic retreat is held which has resulted in thousands giving their lives to the Lord Jesus.
I was a Baptist myself for many years and as a result of reading the various threads on the Catholic faith over the years on The Baptist Board became a Catholic Christian myself. Carson Weber's contributions were the clearest explanations of what it means to be a Catholic Christian.
Most of the Baptist churches in my area have lost their theological moorings. Some are still about the business of winning souls for Jesus but the majority are pretty liberal and dying. Sad!
The Catholic Churches here are standing room only with more churches being built. Every three months a large evangelistic retreat is held which has resulted in thousands giving their lives to the Lord Jesus.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
I understand about the liberal churches. However, the evangelical threat? See this is where my paradigm is thrown off. I was raised Catholic and my family is still Catholic however there is an issue I have with practical Catholicism. The Majority of Catholics I've encountered barely know their faith even from the Catachism. And I dare say many are very secular. What it means to be Catholic is obedience to the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. Yet application is in question. Not among the religious (though some I question) or some of the Clergy. Yet I was rather disappointed with one priest questioned by Bill Maher on Religulous who could have given better responses to him. The question I find is this. Is it better to follow Jesus his teachings, the teachings of the Apostles, or follow a system of rules and know nothing of what God has called us to? Now this can be found in every Christian venue but one emphasis in Evangelical circles and not so much Catholics is the need for that relationship rather than formated equations. If the formated equations assist the life of faith already supplied then that is one thing but not even having the basis of belief what good are the methodologies?