Devotion to Mary 2

[Doubting Thomas]

In response to the Jedi I had said...

Truth is, I worship the Holy Trinity and Him only. However, honoring those whom God honors is not idolatry. Neither is requesting prayers from others. (Nice try on the straw man argumentation, though)

To which the Rev responded...

No strawman...the level at which you honor Mary is excessive and idolatry

It is a strawman indeed, especially since you hardly know anything about me, let alone the manner in which I personally may honor the Virgin Mary, the Theotokos.

(BTW--yes, Ann, the RCC in many respects can be excessive, to say the least, in the way they express 'hyperdulia' for the Mary and overdogmatize in her regard)

 

[Johnv]

... if you are praying to ANYONE OR THING other than God you are an idolater...

I've been a casual lurker here, and haven't commented, but I feel the need to address this. Idolatry has a specific definition. It referrs to the worship of idols. Simply praying to a deceased individual does not in and of itself qualify as the definition of idolatry. In order for it to be considered idolatry, it must be an act of worshipping. Roman Catholic doctrine expressly forbids worshipping of any other than Almighty God. Honoring someone, deceased or living, is not in and of itself worship, hence not idolatrous. It's been noted that said honor can be considered excessive, but the topic of excessive honoring is an issue apart from that of idolatry.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

and i would also add that some Baptist churches can in many respects be just as excessive in their view and almost worship like of the KJV.

In XC
-

 

[saturneptune]

and i would also add that some Baptist churches can in many respects be just as excessive in their view and almost worship like of the KJV.

In XC
-

Not in our church, the KJV is a definite minority.

Getting back to Mary, I have seen many shows on TV about Mary sightings, Mary messages, and other events. Every time I see one of those shows, I walk away with the same thought, "who cares?"

To me, she is just another human being created by God. God chooses who He will use for whatever purpose. He just happen to choose Mary for one purpose, just like He chose David, Moses, Paul, Peter, Abraham, etc, etc for other purposes.

 

[saturneptune]

I've been a casual lurker here, and haven't commented, but I feel the need to address this. Idolatry has a specific definition. It referrs to the worship of idols. Simply praying to a deceased individual does not in and of itself qualify as the definition of idolatry. In order for it to be considered idolatry, it must be an act of worshipping. Roman Catholic doctrine expressly forbids worshipping of any other than Almighty God. Honoring someone, deceased or living, is not in and of itself worship, hence not idolatrous. It's been noted that said honor can be considered excessive, but the topic of excessive honoring is an issue apart from that of idolatry.

What possible purpose could there be for praying to a dead person if it is not worship? What do you think they are going to do for you? What is in your prayers? Thanksgiving? Adoration? Help through a tough situation?

Even if it is not technically worship, they are not going to help you one iota.

 

[DHK]

I've been a casual lurker here, and haven't commented, but I feel the need to address this. Idolatry has a specific definition. It referrs to the worship of idols.

Catholics have redefined the word "worship" so that they can say they do not commit idolatry, yet the sin of idolatry is still committed.
They bow down to idols. The stations of the cross are a good example.

Simply praying to a deceased individual does not in and of itself qualify as the definition of idolatry.

That qualifies as "spiritism," "necromancy," "the occult," etc. That is far more than just idolatry. It encompasses a wide range of sins that are strongly condemned in the Bible.

In order for it to be considered idolatry, it must be an act of worshipping.

Then define worship:

Worship homage rendered to God which it is sinful (idolatry) to render to any created being (Ex. 34:14; Isa. 2:8). Such worship was refused by Peter (Acts 10:25,26) and by an angel (Rev. 22:8,9). Source: Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary.Literature

Worship means state or condition of worth, hence the term "his worship," meaning his worthyship. "Thou shalt have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee" (Luke xiv. 10) means "Thou shalt have worth-ship [value or appreciation]."

http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/worship

Roman Catholic doctrine expressly forbids worshipping of any other than Almighty God.

Then why do they give homage or worship to Mary and all the saints, as is evidenced by their prayers, many of which have been posted here numerous times?

Example:
"Hail Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb: Jesus.
Holy Mary, mother of God; Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen.

This prayer to Mary is horribly idolatrous. It pays homage to Mary. It assumes that Mary is omniscient, omnipresent--that she can here this RCC prayer from all RCC believers all over the world everywhere at all times and be able to answer it. Perhaps that makes her omnipotent as well. These are attributes only God has. They are ascribing deity to Mary.

Honoring someone, deceased or living, is not in and of itself worship, hence not idolatrous. It's been noted that said honor can be considered excessive, but the topic of excessive honoring is an issue apart from that of idolatry.

The above is more than honor. They made of her God and worshiped her as such. That is idolatry.

 

[Revmitchell]

Excessive honor in this context is worship

 

[Jedi Knight]

1 John 5:21 My little children, guard yourselves from idols"whatever comes between you and God". They can take MANY forms as a girlfriend,husband,wife,child,career,dreams...not just religious stuff.

 

[annsni]

What possible purpose could there be for praying to a dead person if it is not worship? What do you think they are going to do for you? What is in your prayers? Thanksgiving? Adoration? Help through a tough situation?

Even if it is not technically worship, they are not going to help you one iota.

I live in a very Catholic area and have a number of Catholic friends - not to mention having gone through parochial school from 7th through 12th grades. What I see is absolutely worship - not just an honoring. No question about it. Many, MANY times, I see Mary taking a higher place than Jesus.

 

[Jkdbuck76]

What possible purpose could there be for praying to a dead person if it is not worship?

They believe that those who are dead and with Christ can hear us and see us.
Any Roman Catholic would tell you that "praying to a saint" is the same as me asking you to pray for me about something.
At least that is what I'm told by the RCC I know who signs my paycheck every week.

But I've been studying Eastern Orthodox iconography and it is interesting to note that any time the Virgin Mary is depicted, she is always with the baby Jesus....she is never alone. But when I see RCC statuary, the Virgin Mary is by herself.

Perhaps Agnus Dei can shed some light on this.

Now Annsni, what do you mean by "Many, MANY times, I see Mary taking a higher place than Jesus." What exactly did you see?

Thanks.

 

[Revmitchell]

Scripturally Saints are all who believe. And why would anyone pray to a dead person when they have the call and freedom to go straight to the throne?

 

[Zenas]

I live in a very Catholic area and have a number of Catholic friends - not to mention having gone through parochial school from 7th through 12th grades. What I see is absolutely worship - not just an honoring. No question about it. Many, MANY times, I see Mary taking a higher place than Jesus.

Pope John Paul II would not have agreed with this. In an essay about the Assumption called "Mary Is First Creature to Enjoy Eternal Life," published in 1997, he said:

The eschatological conditions of Christ and Mary should not, of course, be put on the same level. Mary, the new Eve, received from Christ, the new Adam, the fullness of grace and heavenly glory, having been raised through the Holy Spirit by the sovereign power of the Son.

 

[annsni]

They believe that those who are dead and with Christ can hear us and see us.
Any Roman Catholic would tell you that "praying to a saint" is the same as me asking you to pray for me about something.
At least that is what I'm told by the RCC I know who signs my paycheck every week.

But I've been studying Eastern Orthodox iconography and it is interesting to note that any time the Virgin Mary is depicted, she is always with the baby Jesus....she is never alone. But when I see RCC statuary, the Virgin Mary is by herself.

Perhaps Agnus Dei can shed some light on this.

Now Annsni, what do you mean by "Many, MANY times, I see Mary taking a higher place than Jesus." What exactly did you see?

Thanks.

I see prayers to Mary, litanies to Mary, pleas to Mary, etc. Mary is their first person to go to when in need rather than Jesus Christ. EVERYONE around here tells you "I'll pray to Mary for you". It's just something DH and I have noticed when we've done anything with our Catholic friends. It's all about Mary and not Jesus. It's kind of weird.

 

[Johnv]

What possible purpose could there be for praying to a dead person if it is not worship?

You should ask a Roman Catholic that.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Read the story of the rich man who died and wanted Lazarus to return to warn them. People when they die are not Omnipresent.

 

[Johnv]

They bow down to idols. The stations of the cross are a good example.

If that's what you think, then you don't have an understanding of what the Stations of the Cross is (unless you think prayer stations in general are idolatrous).

Example:
"Hail Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb: Jesus.
Holy Mary, mother of God; Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen.

Asking someone to pray for your is not idolatrous. Your issue isn't with asking someone to pray for you, it's the issue of asking someone who is deceased to pray for you. The fact that a person is deceased does not make the request idolatrous. That said, I personally don't believe in petitioning deceased persons to pray for us, but the fact that I don't believe that doesn't mean that anyone who does so is being idolatrous.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Not in our church, the KJV is a definite minority.

Getting back to Mary, I have seen many shows on TV about Mary sightings, Mary messages, and other events. Every time I see one of those shows, I walk away with the same thought, "who cares?"

To me, she is just another human being created by God. God chooses who He will use for whatever purpose. He just happen to choose Mary for one purpose, just like He chose David, Moses, Paul, Peter, Abraham, etc, etc for other purposes.

How about the AV 1611 only people?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Catholics have redefined the word "worship" so that they can say they do not commit idolatry, yet the sin of idolatry is still committed.
They bow down to idols. The stations of the cross are a good example.

That qualifies as "spiritism," "necromancy," "the occult," etc. That is far more than just idolatry. It encompasses a wide range of sins that are strongly condemned in the Bible.

Then define worship:

http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/worship

Then why do they give homage or worship to Mary and all the saints, as is evidenced by their prayers, many of which have been posted here numerous times?

Example:
"Hail Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb: Jesus.
Holy Mary, mother of God; Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen.

This prayer to Mary is horribly idolatrous. It pays homage to Mary. It assumes that Mary is omniscient, omnipresent--that she can here this RCC prayer from all RCC believers all over the world everywhere at all times and be able to answer it. Perhaps that makes her omnipotent as well. These are attributes only God has. They are ascribing deity to Mary.

The above is more than honor. They made of her God and worshiped her as such. That is idolatry.

From a Catholic Perspective Mary is out side of space time as are all the Saints. God so its not a matter of being like God in that he is omnipresent but that they are given like a prayer list to pray for that God gives them. DHK you were Catholic at one point I think you've said. There is a part of the liturgy (if you remember called intersessions) Where the church prays for certain things given there. I think the Catholic holds that Heaven hold to the Liturgical way of doing things and that intersessions are given to the saints for prayer. This is how it was explained to me. Now I don't know if this is how the Catholic Church always viewed it or a recent Catholic Apologetical look at it. However, no matter how its viewed. Who doesn't want to be prayed for? I tried to argue the Hail Mary Prayer as Idolatry to my family. I didn't go over too well because there is nothing in that particular prayer that points to Mary being God. Execpt Mother of God which the original latin would have been Mater Dei or a direct referrence to the Greek Theotokos. and/or Pray for us sinners which is actually showing subserviance to God and not replacing him. I have better traction with Hail Holy Queen.

 

[DHK]

If that's what you think, then you don't have an understanding of what the Stations of the Cross is (unless you think prayer stations in general are idolatrous).

That is what I know from my 20 years experience in the Catholic Church.
First, the command to make any graven image unto God is broken. Jesus is God.
Second, the command to bow down before them is broken.
Third, the command to pray either before them or to them is broken.

If you want another example: Whenever our family set out to travel on a long journey we had a magnetic icon of St. Christopher that adhered to the dash on the car. We always focused our eyes on that icom, and prayed toward it, addressing St. Christopher (the patron saint of travel or safety) to keep us safe on our travels. That is nothing but idolatry. Thousands of other Catholics did the same (until they found out that St. Christopher never existed).

Asking someone to pray for your is not idolatrous. Your issue isn't with asking someone to pray for you, it's the issue of asking someone who is deceased to pray for you. The fact that a person is deceased does not make the request idolatrous. That said, I personally don't believe in petitioning deceased persons to pray for us, but the fact that I don't believe that doesn't mean that anyone who does so is being idolatrous.

I will pray FOR your lumbago, but I will NOT pray TO you; you are not a god that I should pray TO you. That is what the Catholics do. They pray TO the saints in heaven, making them gods. They pray TO Mary giving her the very attributes that God alone has. There is a big difference between praying TO God for you and for a need of yours; or asking someone else TO pray to GOD for you, then actually praying TO the person. Praying TO a person, even a dead person is idolatry, necromancy, spiritism, and dabbling in the occult; all of which are strongly condemned in the Bible.

 

[DHK]

From a Catholic Perspective Mary is out side of space time as are all the Saints. God so its not a matter of being like God in that he is omnipresent but that they are given like a prayer list to pray for that God gives them. DHK you were Catholic at one point I think you've said. There is a part of the liturgy (if you remember called intersessions) Where the church prays for certain things given there. I think the Catholic holds that Heaven hold to the Liturgical way of doing things and that intersessions are given to the saints for prayer. This is how it was explained to me.

Whether it is a part of their liturgy or not it doesn't matter. Praying to anyone else but God is idolatry. He alone is worthy, and demands our worship. He alone can answer prayer. There is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. That excludes all else. It doesn't matter what the RCC says; it matters what the Bible says. If one prays to dead saints they are praying to dead people which can never answer prayer, nor can even hear prayers--we have no evidence that they can. Praying to anyone else but God is idolatry.

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Now I don't know if this is how the Catholic Church always viewed it or a recent Catholic Apologetical look at it. However, no matter how its viewed. Who doesn't want to be prayed for?

They can't pray for you. And when you ask them to pray for you, then you are praying TO them. That is idolatry, and it is making them gods--giving them attributes that only God has--the power to answer prayer.

I tried to argue the Hail Mary Prayer as Idolatry to my family. I didn't go over too well because there is nothing in that particular prayer that points to Mary being God. Execpt Mother of God which the original latin would have been Mater Dei or a direct referrence to the Greek Theotokos. and/or Pray for us sinners which is actually showing subserviance to God and not replacing him. I have better traction with Hail Holy Queen.

Just the fact that one is praying to anyone else but God is sufficient enough to show that it is idolatry. God commands that all prayers be directed to him. Prayer is worship. Only God can be worshiped. He demands all worship to be directed to him. If it isn't it is idolatry.