Devotion to Mary 2

[Johnv]

That is what I know from my 20 years experience in the Catholic Church.

That differs from my 20+ years of experience with the Catholic Church.

First, the command to make any graven image unto God is broken.

The commendment does not forbid making graven images. You can make all the graven images you want ("graven image" simply means a statue; my last church had two bronze statues of Christ on their grounds, depicting various biblical scenes).

Rather, the commendment forbids making making graven images AND worshipping them. Catholics don't worship statues.

I will pray FOR your lumbago...

I wasn't aware I had it, but I never turn down a prayer from a brother. :wavey:

They pray TO the saints in heaven, making them gods...

That's where the crux of your conclusion is. You're equating prayer with worship. It's not. If praying to God were the same as worshiping Him, a lot of us would be getting off easy.

 

[annsni]

Catholics don't worship statues.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False Religions/Russian_Orthodox/mary_worship-demonic.jpg

http://www.thechristianwebsite.com/images/Pope-Mary-3_enhance.jpg

http://www.thechristianwebsite.com/images/fatima_statue_crop_90.jpg

http://www.thechristianwebsite.com/images/idolatry-mary_worship.jpg

Then there's this site. It doesn't show anyone bowing to a statue of Mary but it's scary none-the-less. It has a section with a photo that shows Mary and says "Queen of Peace" and "Spouse of the Holy Spirit"

http://www.marianland.com/truech02.html

 

[Johnv]

Not saying it isn't scary, odd, wierd, etc. Just saying that, as far as definition goes, maryology does not categorically qualify as idolatry.

It's amusing that the website above fervently displays the prayer fo St Francis, a Roman Catholic monk.

 

[annsni]

Not saying it isn't scary, odd, wierd, etc. Just saying that, as far as definition goes, maryology does not categorically qualify as idolatry.

It's amusing that the website above fervently displays the prayer fo St Francis, a Roman Catholic monk.

The website that I posted was VERY Catholic - like fundamentalist Catholic. LOL So I'm not surprised about the prayer to St. Francis.

I do think that maryology is idolatry. Maybe some Catholics just honor her but the vast majority that I know in all my years with the Catholic church, Catholic school and Catholic friends, it's definitely idoloatry in their lives.

 

[Johnv]

The website that I posted was VERY Catholic - like fundamentalist Catholic. LOL So I'm not surprised about the prayer to St. Francis.

The reason for my comment is I happen to like the Prayer myself.

I do think that maryology is idolatry. Maybe some Catholics just honor her but the vast majority that I know in all my years with the Catholic church, Catholic school and Catholic friends, it's definitely idoloatry in their lives.

If a Catholic worships Mary, then that person violates the RCC doctrine on the subject. Alas, Baptists aren't devoid of idolatry ourselves. There are those of us that worship the Bible, or worship the Baptist Dictinctives, etc, etc etc, in effect doing what we accuse others of. But again, as far as definition of idolatry, maryology does not categorically qualify.

 

[Marcia]

It depends on what one means by "worship." The word translated as "worship" in the Bible can mean "honor" or "paying homage to." It has a broader context than we think of.

Our word worship derives from the Old English weordhscipe meaning worthiness or meritoriousness and thus giving God the recognition He deserves. There are some problems with this English translation, however, because the Greek & Hebrew terms do not mean precisely the same thing.


'aboda (Hebrew; also - abad or asab) and latreia (Greek; also - latreuo) are frequently translated as worship. Although, these are not the only words translated worship and even these words are not always translated, 'worship'2. When translated as worship in the OT these words typically mean service associated with the work done in the temple. In the NT the related Greek term latreia either refers back to the OT temple cultus3, to the false belief that killing disciples would be regarded as service to God4 or as an OT allusion that Christians should offer their own bodies (i.e. meaning 'life') to God as a sacrifice.

Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.5 (Rom 12:1)
​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Paul uses the related Greek word leitourgia (i.e. translated service) to refer to a monetary gift collected for the Jerusalem Christians[/FONT]6[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] and for the assistance he received from others[/FONT]7[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] and the term leitourgos (i.e. translated serves or servant) is used of Christ[/FONT]8[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif], angels[/FONT]9[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif], rulers[/FONT]10[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif], Epaphroditus's delivery of the Philippian gift[/FONT]11[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif], and of ministry to the Gentiles[/FONT]12[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]. Thus, the term latreia and its cognates are directly associated with both service & sacrifice when directed toward God. It might have been better if the translators had chosen the words 'serve', 'service' and 'minister' instead of worship. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Other terms are translated as worship including the Greek word proskyneo[/FONT]13[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] and its Hebrew equivalent shachac.[/FONT]14[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] Both of these terms refer to a posture of submission and thus an acknowledgment of God's sovereignty. Obeisance requires an attitude of reverential fear. This is evident in the behaviors of bending the knee (i.e. gonu or gonupeteo) and bowing down (histahawa or shachac {Heb.} or proskyneo {Gk. to kiss forward}) which are associated with worship. It should be noted, however, that these postures are associated with other things too (i.e. one can have this attitude in petitions to God, gods or man). [/FONT]

The above is from
http://www.xenos.org/essays/worship.htm


I think praying to Mary as though she can hear all prayers and as though she is an intermediary between us and God or us and Christ definitely falls into the category of worship, because:
1. It is seeking someone other than Christ as an intermediary
2. It is putting Mary in a place only deity can occupy - assuming she can hear all prayers being said to her at all times from all places from everyone. This is beyond any human ability, dead or alive.
3. It pays homage to someone whom we are never told to pay homage to.

This is aside from the issue of praying to a dead person, which falls into another forbidden category.

 

[DHK]

The commendment does not forbid making graven images. You can make all the graven images you want ("graven image" simply means a statue; my last church had two bronze statues of Christ on their grounds, depicting various biblical scenes).

I will go with what the Bible says, not your opinion:

Exodus 20:3-4 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

When it says: "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image...." that is what it means. A child can understand those words. It is odd that the RCC cannot. Can you understand them?

Rather, the commendment forbids making making graven images AND worshipping them. Catholics don't worship statues.

That is not what verse four says. It says not even to make them.

Acts 19:24-25 For a certain man named Demetrius, a silversmith, which made silver shrines for Diana, brought no small gain unto the craftsmen; 25 Whom he called together with the workmen of like occupation, and said, Sirs, ye know that by this craft we have our wealth.
--It doesn't say that Demetrius was a devout follower of Diana. His sin was in the making of these shrines (idols) so that others would worship them.

Look further:
Acts 19:26-27 Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands:
27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth.

They went directly against the Ten Commandments as do the RCC. They made graven images as do the RCC. They are made with hands. It is a craft. Instead of Diana it is Mary. All Catholics worship her. When you pray to Mary (Diana) you worship her. What do you think these Asians did? They prayed to Diana. It is idolatry. It is the same as the RCC.

I wasn't aware I had it, but I never turn down a prayer from a brother. :wavey:

Good, But take careful note: I won't pray TO you!
Therein lies the difference.

That's where the crux of your conclusion is. You're equating prayer with worship. It's not. If praying to God were the same as worshiping Him, a lot of us would be getting off easy.

Prayer is one part of worship. There is more to worship than prayer. Singing is also worship; but not all singing is worship. All that is directed to God is worship. If you sing a love song to your wife/fiancee it is an expression of love to her. But would you pray to her? I hope not. Then you would be making her a god. All prayer must be directed to God, for all prayer is one form of worship. It is an expression of our love for God, our place of subservience to God as our creator and Lord, our recognition to Him as our only mediator.

 

[Zenas]

The website that I posted was VERY Catholic - like fundamentalist Catholic. LOL So I'm not surprised about the prayer to St. Francis.
I do think that maryology is idolatry. Maybe some Catholics just honor her but the vast majority that I know in all my years with the Catholic church, Catholic school and Catholic friends, it's definitely idoloatry in their lives.

Spelling police here. The correct spelling of the term for study of things pertaining to Mary is Mariology. Check the course offerings in the department of religion at most Catholic colleges and there will be at least one course entitled "Mariology."

And yes, I fully expect someone to come on here and say it's really Mariolatry. :BangHead:

 

[DHK]

And yes, I fully expect someone to come on here and say it's really Mariolatry. :BangHead:

Call it for what it is.

 

[Johnv]

I will go with what the Bible says, not your opinion

That IS what the bible says. The bible doesn't say "do not make images", it says "do not make images and worship them". v3 and v4 are one statement, not two. If v3 condemned the making of images, then any religious artwork is idolatry. The claim that religious artwork is idolatry doesn't have a scriptural leg to stand on.

 

[DHK]

That IS what the bible says. The bible doesn't say "do not make images", it says "do not make images and worship them". v3 and v4 are one statement, not two. If v3 condemned the making of images, then any religious artwork is idolatry. The claim that religious artwork is idolatry doesn't have a scriptural leg to stand on.

Yes it does. Pulling Scripture out of context is foolishness, and it is the ploy that Catholics here use all the time. Please don't stoop to their level. Look at the context. In the Ten Commandments, the Lord is talking of Himself. Idolatry has to do with the Lord. The image-making has to do with God. Do not make any graven image or likeness of God. That is the context. Do not bow down to any thing that takes the place of God. Anything that comes between you and God is an idol, and in our society that includes sports, money, leisure, family, etc. Anything that comes between you and God is an idol. A graven image that one bows down to is a replacement for God. Even to build one is sin. To make an image of one is sin, for God "is spirit; they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

 

[annsni]

Exodus 20 says:

"4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments."

Deuteronomy 5 says:

"8"'You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 9You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 10but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments."

 

[Johnv]

The problem, DHK, is that, according to your interpretation of scripture, the following is odilatrous:

 

[Marcia]

Making a graven image means an image to be worshiped, and this would include praying to a statue of Mary. How can a statue hear you? How can Mary hear? Even if not using a statue, how can we pray to someone who is not God?

Christ is the only intermediary - that is in Scripture. Praying to Mary makes here an intermediary, taking the place of Christ.

 

[annsni]

I would love to hear one example in Scripture where:

* A godly person prayed to someone who was dead.

* God told us to pray to the dead.

* A dead person heard the prayers of the living and brought them to God.

 

[Johnv]

Making a graven image means an image to be worshiped, and this would include praying to a statue of Mary.

Except that a Catholic will tell you that they don't woship Mary, and they don't pray to statues. Again, as unsual as the practice is to a Baptist, it does not meet the definition of idolatry.

I would love to hear one example in Scripture where:

To be fair, silence isn't necessarily an argument (see the thread on whether musicla instruments are allowed). However, as far as I'm aware, no such scritpures exist to support the practice.

 

[annsni]

Except that a Catholic will tell you that they don't woship Mary, and they don't pray to statues. Again, as unsual as the practice is to a Baptist, it does not meet the definition of idolatry.

I see people bow to the statue or kiss the statue. That's idolatry.

To be fair, silence isn't necessarily an argument (see the thread on whether musicla instruments are allowed). However, as far as I'm aware, no such scritpures exist to support the practice.

However, in the argument against music, Scripture speaks well of music. In this case, there is not even one slight inkling of it in the Scripture other than being told that we're not to practice necromancy or divination. I think we can safely say that since we ARE told to pray to God the Father and that the Son is the only intercessor, then there is no one else to pray for.

 

[Johnv]

I see people bow to the statue or kiss the statue. That's idolatry.

Bowing and kissing a statue isn't idolatry. Otherwise this would be idolatry:

Idolatry is defined by worshipping. Catholics by doctrine don't worship statues.

However, in the argument against music, Scripture speaks well of music.

The argument on the other thread is that the NT is silent on the the use of instruments during worship, and therefore does not allow the use of instruments in worship. Yeah, I know, it's a stupid argument, I agree. But it demonstrates how silence usually isn't an adequate argument.

 

[DHK]

The problem, DHK, is that, according to your interpretation of scripture, the following is odilatrous:

Do you bow down before it?
Do you pray to it?

The Catholics bow down in front of their images.
They pray to them.
They also pray to their dead saints in heaven.
All such practices come under the practice of idolatry--whether or not they admit it. The Bible declares it is idolatry, and that is all that is needed.

 

[Johnv]

Again, in order for something to qualify as idolatry, it requires worship. Unless worship is involved, it's not idolatry.