"Devotion" to Mary...

[DHK]

The key and correct word you use Johnv is "veneration"...There's a huge difference between "veneration" and "worship" and most Protestants are unfamiliar with the term "veneration" and/or the differences...I know I was as a Protestant.

Actually there isn't any. The RCC would like to pull off this dichotomy in the definitions of these two synonyms but in reality there isn't any difference.

Would you worship me?
Would you venerate me?
Why or why not? The answer is because I am not worthy of worship; only God is worthy of worship (veneration). Just as you would not worship me or any other person on this board you would not venerate them either for it is the same as worship. There is no difference.

Venerate:
–verb (used with object), -at⋅ed, -at⋅ing. to regard or treat with reverence; revere.

Origin:
1615–25; < L venerātus, ptp. of venerārī to solicit the goodwill of (a god), worship,[/b] revere, v. deriv. of vener-, s. of venus, presumably in its original sense “desire”; see Venus )

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/venerate

To venerate is to worship.
Only God is worthy of worship/veneration. It is blasphemous to give that honor to any other. In fact that would be the very definition of idolatry.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Actually there isn't any. The RCC would like to pull off this dichotomy in the definitions of these two synonyms but in reality there isn't any difference.

Would you worship me?
Would you venerate me?
Why or why not? The answer is because I am not worthy of worship; only God is worthy of worship (veneration). Just as you would not worship me or any other person on this board you would not venerate them either for it is the same as worship. There is no difference.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/venerate

To venerate is to worship.
Only God is worthy of worship/veneration. It is blasphemous to give that honor to any other. In fact that would be the very definition of idolatry.

Tsk, Tsk, Tsk...DHK...why don't we go with a real dictionary, say, Merriam Webster...

* Main Entry: ven·er·ate
* Pronunciation: \ˈve-nə-ˌrāt\
* Function: transitive verb
* Inflected Form(s): ven·er·at·ed; ven·er·at·ing
* Etymology: Latin veneratus, past participle of venerari, from vener-,
venus love, charm — more at win
* Date: circa 1623

1 : to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference
2 : to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotion

Source:Venerate

In XC
-

 

[DHK]

Revelation 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

proskunew proskuneo pros-koo-neh'-o

from 4314 and a probable derivative of 2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his
master's hand); to fawn or crouch to, i.e. (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself
in homage (do reverence to, adore):--worship.

From the Greek word for "worship" we see the synonym for reverence. These are the same words, interchangeable in the Bible. The above is from Strong's Concordance.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Agnus,

"The key and correct word you use Johnv is "veneration"...There's a huge difference between "veneration" and "worship"..."

Not in the Catholic and Orthodox groups there isnt.

...and most Protestants are unfamiliar with the term "veneration" and/or the differences...I know I was as a Protestant.

And yes, some Catholics do take the veneration to the extreme. I haven't noticed this extreme in my Orthodox Church.

Well, lets take a look at some, shall we?

Here is a link to Orthodox prayers directed to Mary. There is one for each day of the week.

Lets take a look at the friday one....

"To thee do I entrust my life for protection and, on thee, alter God, do I place all hope of my salvation, 0 Mistress and Virgin Theotokos. I, thy servant, pray thee, despise not me who have many sins, but behold my sorrow and my perplexity over them and grant me relief and consolation, that I not perish to the end. Stretch forth thy right hand, 0 pure one, lift me from the mire of my deeds and place me in the pure pasture of the commandments of Christ, my King and God, that I may ever act strengthened by Thee.

Deliver me, 0 Lady, from my terrible sins and by thy motherly intercession before thy Son and God send me repentance unto salvation. Thou who didst show forth the ineffable Light, enlighten my spiritual darkness and the sinfullness which lieth there. 0 my Joy, deliver me from the invisible enemies that surround me; for my sins are many and they are heavy, my enemies are very fierce, death is near, my conscience doth accuse me, the fiery Gehenna doth Terrify me, the unsleeping worm, the gnashing of teeth, the outer darkness of Tartarus do bring me to trembling, for they seek to take me in because of my evil deeds.

Woe is me! What shall I do then, and to whom shall I flee, that my soul be saved? To thee alone, 0 sweet Theotokos Mary, who cloth sweeten the bitterness of death for them that hope in thee and who doth deliver them that cry unto thee from terrible Gehenna.

Do thou also help me, 0 all-good one, for then I shall have no other help but thee, all hymned one. Save me then from the terrors of the hour of death and the ferocity of the demons; save me from the power of the malicious spirits at the trials of the air after death: Reveal, I pray thee, reveal to me then thy most radiant presence, O Mistress, and do thou not abandon me the helpless one. 0 compassionate Mother!

Stoop down to mercy towards me who am deprived of mercy by my deeds and do thou beseech Him Whom thou didst bear in the flesh, even Christ our God and Savior, Who did pour forth His most pure blood on the cross, that I also may receive forgiveness of sins and eternal salvation and glorify thine unspeakable compassion, 0 Theotokos, and thy merciful intercession, through out endless ages. Amen.

That is nothing short of pure, undiluted, unadulterated goddess worship, Agnus.

How can you not see it???

It is no different than the goddess worship of the Catholic *church*

Click the link. There is one for every day of the week...

http://www.holycross-hermitage.com/pages/Orthodox_Life/theotokos_prayers.htm

 

[Zenas]

Alive in Christ, I agree that prayers like the one you just cited are over the top. I also believe some of the festivals like they have in honor of Our Lady of Guadelupe in Latin America border on paganism. Nevertheless I have to conclude that Mary is an extraordinary creature, not divine, but one who deserves our veneration. I came to this conclusion after discovering that Luke and John both portray Mary as the antitype of the ark of the covenant.

PARALLEL PASSAGES THAT PORTRAY THE ARK OF THE COVENANT AS AN OLD TESTAMENT TYPE OF THE VIRGIN MARY


Just as the glory of the Lord overshadowed the ark in the tabernacle, the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary.

THE ARK: “Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.” Exodus 40:34.

MARY: “And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee.” Luke 1:35.

* * * * *

THE ARK: When trying to bring the ark up to the city, David said, "How can the ark of the Lord come to me?" 2 Samuel 6:9.

MARY: When Elizabeth greeted Mary she said, “[W]hence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Luke 1:43.

* * * * *

THE ARK: “[T]he ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months.” 2 Samuel 6:11.

MARY: “And Mary abode with her [Elizabeth] about three months.” Luke 1:56.

* * * * *

THE ARK: David was “leaping” before the ark as it was brought into the city. 2 Samuel 6:16.

MARY: At the sound of Mary’s voice, John “leaped” for joy in Elizabeth’s womb. Luke 1:44.

* * * * *

The contents of the ark are all symbolic of Jesus, who was conceived in the womb of Mary.

THE ARK CONTAINED (1) a golden jar of manna, (2) Aaron's rod which budded and (3) the tables of the covenant. Hebrews 9:4.

OUR LORD, CONCEIVED IN THE WOMB OF MARY is to us (1) the Bread of Life, John 6:48; our High Priest, Hebrews 5:10; and the eternal Word, John 1:1

* * * * *.

Finally, in the book of Revelation we see the ark of the covenant, whose whereabouts has been unknown since the time of Jeremiah. Next we see the majestic woman with a crown of twelve stars giving birth to a child who would rule the nations. We don’t tend to read these verses together because of a chapter division but when they were written, there was no division. There is definitely a nexus between the ark and the woman (Mary) who gives birth to the child (Jesus).

“And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm. And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.” Revelation 11:19-12:1.

All of this may be coincidence and conjecture but I don't think so. I know many regard the Revelation passage as a portrayal of Israel, or the church, or even Eve, but the similarities to Mary are even greater. Who else gave birth to a child who would rule the nations? This also gives some credence to the RCC doctrine of Mary, Queen of Angels and Saints. Still I don't pray to Mary but I cannot find fault with those who do, especially when they pray to her for intercession.

 

[steaver]

We have some Catholics and Orthodox on here, along with some others who, although not literally part of either group, always seem to defend their practices and beliefs.

I happened to see this on EWTN last night. This is an example of the so called "harmless" view of Mary that Catholics and Orthodox engage in.

These are 2 of the "Novenas" that are directed to Mary.



HOW IN THE WORLD can anyone defend this stuff? It is so blatant. So drastically idolatrous.

The defense is always "Why, we are just asking Mary to pray for us, like if you as a friend to pray for you."

Nonsense. This is pure idolatry, and I am amazed at the blindness that exists regarding these practices.


http://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/novena/lourdes.htm

Thank you for the thread AIC. :thumbs:

I read most threads as a means of educating myself as to what is going on as regards to people's beliefs on different subjects. You have been faithful to Eph 5:11And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove [them].

To say the prayers you posted are "border line" idolatry is flat out denial of the truth. These prayers make my spirit cringe. I cannot imagine saying such a prayer to a fellow Christian who has passed away. Those prayers should be dirrected to Jesus Christ alone.

The scripture teaches us that we have an advocate with the Father in Jesus Christ. No one needs to pray anything to anyone other than Jesus. If I have Jesus as my intercesser why in the world do I need to pray to saints who have died? Is Jesus to busy to hear us all at once? And how does Mary hear millions of prayers at once? These prayers going up to Mary are no different than the prayers any other pagan religion sends up. They are falling on deaf ears.

Thanks for the info! We need to constantly expose these heresies for you never know who might be listening in. There are people being caught up in Catholicism everyday. We who are able to discern between the good and evil should always keep it freshly exposed so others might avoid the errors.

After reading all of the responses I am surprised how many non-Catholics actually defend the Catholic church on this Mary worshipping. It is what it is, "borderline" it is not!

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

There is a difference between wishing to have a genuinely productive discussion of the errors of Catholicism's precepts, versus wanting to vent on grudges and get them fired up in other people. Too many people seem more interested in the latter than the former.

For those of you who are so eager to indulge your vent ill-feelings about Catholicism or Catholics, and want to spread them to others, please take a moment to read this article:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,521721,00.html

THAT is what giving in to those feelings leads to when it runs it full course.

The man had a wife and children. He was a community servant. He was outside in the Catholic neighborhood, and now he is dead because of a group of thugs with anti-Catholic grudges.

For those of you who like these sorts of discussions: ask yourself how you felt about what happened there. Were you sad -- or pleased? This will tell you how far along you are on that course.

With all due respect Darron, the article has nothing to do with having a debate on a discussion board over religious practices. A bunch of drunks who call themsleves "protestants" showed how they were of the devil by beating a Catholic to death. Christians do not do such things, period!

For you to say AiC is trying to cause hatred for Catholics is quite over the top and is actually an acusation without any merit. It is something within you that is unjust to make such a conclusion just because you do not like the topic.

This subject has alot of merit on a board such as this and the errors of religion need to be exposed always. Jesus did not come to bring peace in these matters, but to expose the errors of many. He being our example means we need to expose them as well. Not stirring up hate for people, but we need to hate any form of idolatry. Paul said even the "appearance of evil" we should flee from. Now how are people going to know what is error unless people like us who know the truth preach it and expose the evil?

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Idolatry is evil! The common ordinary person who listens to one of those prayers to Mary is going to walk away believing this Mary is a god. These prayers appear evil to me and I have even heard the lame explanations for them. What about those who hear them and have not heard the lame explanantions for them? The appearance is evil.

:jesus:

 

[Amy.G]

PARALLEL PASSAGES THAT PORTRAY THE ARK OF THE COVENANT AS AN OLD TESTAMENT TYPE OF THE VIRGIN MARY

This is pure blasphemy!

I'm only going to address one point. The lid of the Ark was called the "mercy seat". Once a year, blood was applied by the high priest for "atonement". This is a symbol of the mercy seat of GOD. To equate Mary with the ark is to equate her with GOD. Blood is not offered to Mary for the forgiveness of sins.
To say that the Ark is a "type" of Mary is nothing more than pure, unadulterated blasphemy and heresy.

 

[Darron Steele]

With all due respect Darron, the article has nothing to do with having a debate on a discussion board over religious practices. ...

Agreed -- but that is not what is happening here.

Who is this debate going to be with? Catholics? They are not allowed to join. So, how is it possible to debate with Catholics about their precepts.

The article is ALL ABOUT what is REALLY happening in threads like this. This thread, and threads like it, is all about venting grudges regarding Catholics -- the same darn thing that led those thugs to murder.

 

[DHK]

Agreed -- but that is not what is happening here.

Who is this debate going to be with? Catholics? They are not allowed to join. So, how is it possible to debate with Catholics about their precepts.

The article is ALL ABOUT what is REALLY happening in threads like this. This thread, and threads like it, is all about venting grudges regarding Catholics -- the same darn thing that led those thugs to murder.

I have to agree with Steaver here. That link was unwarranted. It was about a soccer match, matches that often turn violent and ugly no matter where they are played and no matter which religion is involved. That time it was in a country that was predominately Catholic. The same thing often happens in England. It happens because of the teams that play without regard to religion. To use that link for Catholic bashing, when even protestants do the same thing at their own venues is hypocritical.

 

[Zenas]

This is pure blasphemy!

I'm only going to address one point. The lid of the Ark was called the "mercy seat". Once a year, blood was applied by the high priest for "atonement". This is a symbol of the mercy seat of GOD. To equate Mary with the ark is to equate her with GOD. Blood is not offered to Mary for the forgiveness of sins.

So you think the ark should be worshiped? Apparently so because you have equated the ark with God. My pastor says the reason we can't find the ark is because God doesn't want us to. That if we did find it we would worhip it rather than Him. In view of your comment, maybe he is more right than I thought.

To say that the Ark is a "type" of Mary is nothing more than pure, unadulterated blasphemy and heresy.

All right. Then how do you explain the striking similarities in these passages?

 

[DHK]

This is pure blasphemy!

I'm only going to address one point. The lid of the Ark was called the "mercy seat". Once a year, blood was applied by the high priest for "atonement". This is a symbol of the mercy seat of GOD. To equate Mary with the ark is to equate her with GOD. Blood is not offered to Mary for the forgiveness of sins.
To say that the Ark is a "type" of Mary is nothing more than pure, unadulterated blasphemy and heresy.

Absolutely right Amy. There was no one that prayed to the ark--No one! Someone doesn't know how to study their Bible and is simply showing Biblical illiteracy. He ought to ashamed of himself.

 

[DHK]

So you think the ark should be worshiped? Apparently so because you have equated the ark with God. My pastor says the reason we can't find the ark is because God doesn't want us to. That if we did find it we would worhip it rather than Him. In view of your comment, maybe he is more right than I thought.

No one said the ark should be worshiped. Where did you get that from? Are you putting words in people's mouths. You have yet to demonstrate in the Bible where the ark was worshiped. Again Biblical illiteracy.
Do you know that if all the Catholics gathered all the pieces of the cross that they venerate they would have enough would to build a house. :grin:
Why do they worship wood? Does God want them to do that. Do you think that if they found the actual original MSS of the Bible that people would worship them as well? I do. The same goes for the ark. Use your common sense here.

All right. Then how do you explain the striking similarities in these passages?

Between Mary and the Ark? You are dreaming? Where have you been? Certainly not in the Scriptures!

 

[Amy.G]

So you think the ark should be worshiped? Apparently so because you have equated the ark with God.

I did no such thing. God required that the Temple be constructed exactly according to His instructions because it was an earthly representation of the heavenly "temple" of God. The mercy seat was a representation of the true mercy seat of God in heaven. Only God is to be worshiped, which is why your post is so disturbing. To pour blood on the mercy seat of "Mary" is to believe that Mary can grant forgiveness of sin.
You will not find in ALL of scripture that the mercy seat belongs to anyone other than God.

All right. Then how do you explain the striking similarities in these passages?

Your imagination and eisegesis. Cults leaders do this all the time to "prove" to their subjects that they are the "Christ".

Do a study on the Temple and all of it's furnishings and what they represented. Understanding the OT is key to understanding the New Covenant. You will be astonished at all the times you see Christ in the OT, even though He was not revealed until the New.

 

[steaver]

Agreed -- but that is not what is happening here.

Who is this debate going to be with? Catholics? They are not allowed to join. So, how is it possible to debate with Catholics about their precepts.

The article is ALL ABOUT what is REALLY happening in threads like this. This thread, and threads like it, is all about venting grudges regarding Catholics -- the same darn thing that led those thugs to murder.

Look what is happening Darron. We, non Catholics, are having a debate as to whether or not the OP list of prayers to Mary is worshipping Mary or not. Shouldn't we Christians learn and understand just what idolatry is so we can avoid it and teach others to abstain from it as well?

I believe it needs to be debated just for the very reason it is being debated here and that is there are many Christians who don't understand that God is the only One who is to be praised. Mary was a sinner just as we all. Wasn't Moses, Abraham and Job, just to name a few, righteous men who we all look up to? Yet they three needed a Saviour because they were sinners and nobody is praying to them and praising them in thier prayers. The Catholics have made Mary equal to God, she would have to be if she was sinless as they say she was.

There shouldn't be one mature Christian on this board who is not able to discern these prayers to Mary as idolatry. And since there are Christains on this board that have yet to realize the evil in these prayers to Mary these debates must go on for two reasons; 1) That those who take lightly idolatry will see the evil in these prayers and get on board reproving them. 2) That those dropping in to listen will get informed as well and avoid falling into the pagan practice of praying to gods who cannot hear you.

I don't see this thread as catholic bashing. Christians must speak up for the truth and bring up the evil that is happening within the religions of the world so we may help others avoid it. Snatching them from the fire of hell.

I see the evil in these prayers. I have testified to many people about this when they asked me about the Catholics. I was able to inform them and hide a multitude of sins because I had learned about these practices from discussion boards like this one.



God Bless!

 

[Revmitchell]

Idolatry requires the act of worshipping, as though a deity. Although I share concerns about the use of "queen of heaven", I don't know a single Roman Catholic who, in a deific manner, worships anyone other than the Trinity. That categorically disqualifies the accusation of idolatry.

Now back that up with scripture

 

[DHK]

Who is this debate going to be with? Catholics? They are not allowed to join. So, how is it possible to debate with Catholics about their precepts.

There are still some Catholics left on this board, not many, but some. They are careful as to what they say lest they be seen as to proselytizing their own religion. The one's that are left are very polite, and simply defend their own position.

There are also Anglicans and Orthodox which have similar positions as Catholics in many areas. It is good for them to have their eyes opened as to what idolatry really is.

 

[Revmitchell]

So you think the ark should be worshiped? Apparently so because you have equated the ark with God. My pastor says the reason we can't find the ark is because God doesn't want us to. That if we did find it we would worhip it rather than Him. In view of your comment, maybe he is more right than I thought.

She said nothing resembling your accusation.

All right. Then how do you explain the striking similarities in these passages?

There is no need for explanation. Similarities can be found in a great many things. But that proves nothing. The onus is on you to prove it beyond those similarities.

 

[DHK]

Like I said, idolatry requires the act of worshipping, as though a deity. Roman Catholics give Mary far too much veneration, imo, but deification of anyone other than the Trinity is against Catholic doctrine. That categorically disqualifies the accusation of idolatry. Excessive veneration, yes, absolutely. Idolatry, no. Acknowlegement of such is not ignorance. It is discernment.

1. Veneration is worship. We have already seen that.
2. Ignorance is no excuse.
3. As a former Catholic I would not admit to idolatry, but having my eyes opened by the Scriptures I know that it was.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I talk to unsaved people that deny the very existence of Christ.
Others like Muslims deny his deity.
They are "spiritually discerned," unsaved. They deny what they actually do, according to the Bible. They need to have their eyes opened. The Muslims worship a rock at Mecca, but will deny that it is idolatry. It is. How does that differ than the RCC? All of Islam denies idolatry in all of its forms yet is deeply involved in it. The same is true of the RCC. They are unsaved, spiritually discerned.

 

[rdwhite]

In Zaragoza, Coahuila, Mexico, there is an Easter parade every year that starts at the north entrance to the town and traverses south to the plaza, goes around the plaza, in which stands an Idol to the goddess of the moon, and terminates at the Catholic Church. The object of greatest prominence in the parade is a cross, and hanging upon the cross is an idol of the moon goddess. The next object of prominence in the parade is the float depicting the moon goddess standing upon her moon holding a baby, the child god. Do not tell me she is not worshiped, I am an eye witness. Do not tell me they reverence Mary, the woman who gave birth to Jesus, that is willful ignorance.

The moon goddess is known by many names and worshiped the world over: aka Queen of Heaven, Mary, Ashtoreth, The Lady (i.e. all the many ladies that are worshiped Fatima, Guadalupe, Lordes, et. al.), Diana, Ishtar, Isis, and so on and so forth. Any defense of Mary, Queen of Heaven, is heresy and blasphemy.