"Devotion" to Mary...

[Alive in Christ]

RD White...

"In Zaragoza, Coahuila, Mexico, there is an Easter parade every year that starts at the north entrance to the town and traverses south to the plaza, goes around the plaza, in which stands an Idol to the goddess of the moon, and terminates at the Catholic Church. The object of greatest prominence in the parade is a cross, and hanging upon the cross is an idol of the moon goddess. The next object of prominence in the parade is the float depicting the moon goddess standing upon her moon holding a baby, the child god. Do not tell me she is not worshiped, I am an eye witness. Do not tell me they reverence Mary, the woman who gave birth to Jesus, that is willful ignorance.

The moon goddess is known by many names and worshiped the world over: aka Queen of Heaven, Mary, Ashtoreth, The Lady (i.e. all the many ladies that are worshiped Fatima, Guadalupe, Lordes, et. al.), Diana, Ishtar, Isis, and so on and so forth. Any defense of Mary, Queen of Heaven, is heresy and blasphemy."

Thank you for your contribution to this thread.

I was going to post some photos of idols of Mary being held "high and lifted up" as she is paraded through the street of many countries world wide, as the people are in a state of extacy in their idolatrous worship of their goddess Mary. I still might.

But you have testified and seen with your own eyes this goddess worship...that is approved of by the Catholic Church.

Thank you. It must be breathtaking to see it in person.
__________________

 

[Zenas]

No one said the ark should be worshiped. Where did you get that from? Are you putting words in people's mouths. You have yet to demonstrate in the Bible where the ark was worshiped. Again Biblical illiteracy.
Do you know that if all the Catholics gathered all the pieces of the cross that they venerate they would have enough would to build a house. :grin:
Why do they worship wood? Does God want them to do that. Do you think that if they found the actual original MSS of the Bible that people would worship them as well? I do. The same goes for the ark. Use your common sense here.

These are Amy's words from Post No. 28, not mine.

To equate Mary with the ark is to equate her with GOD.

If you equate the ark with God, then you are saying it is worthy of worship. I was shocked to read this from someone as fundamental as Amy has shown herself to be. And no, I don't think she would be an ark worshiper. I don't think she meant to say what she did say, so my response was mostly hyperbole.

As for demonstrating in the Bible where the ark was worshiped, I won't try because, like you, I know it isn't in there. However, the ark was venerated by the people of Israel. Yes, venerated, not worshiped. There is a difference. We only worship God but we venerate a lot of things. Go to Washington, D.C. and look at some of the natinal shrines. The Lincoln Memorial and Jefferson Memorial come to mind. These men are venerated. I honor my deceased parents with a picture of them hanging in a prominent place in my house. Another form of veneration. But none of this amounts to worship.

 

[DHK]

If you equate the ark with God, then you are saying it is worthy of worship. I was shocked to read this from someone as fundamental as Amy has shown herself to be. And no, I don't think she would be an ark worshiper. I don't think she meant to say what she did say, so my response was mostly hyperbole.

Veneration is worship. I have already demonstrated through the usage of the Greek word "worship" as used in the NT. It means venerate. The two are synonymous. It is foolishness to draw a dichotomy between the two words just to claim that you are not really worshiping when you are. That is the RCC's ploy. It doesn't work.

Secondly the ark is not, was not, and never was equated with God. Can you give me chapter and verse. Demonstrate from Scripture that it was.

As for demonstrating in the Bible where the ark was worshiped, I won't try because, like you, I know it isn't in there.

Then you know it wasn't venerated or worshiped because that would be a violation of the Ten Commandments. Thou shalt not commit idolatry.

However, the ark was venerated by the people of Israel. Yes, venerated, not worshiped. There is a difference.

No, there is no difference. Those that worshiped/venerated it were in sin. Are we speaking of sinful Israel or righteous Israel? Why the confusion and sidestepping of the issue?

We only worship God but we venerate a lot of things. Go to Washington, D.C. and look at some of the natinal shrines. The Lincoln Memorial and Jefferson Memorial come to mind. These men are venerated. I honor my deceased parents with a picture of them hanging in a prominent place in my house. Another form of veneration. But none of this amounts to worship.

The Bible commands you to honor your parents, not to venerate them. They do that in Shintoism, even after they are dead and offer their dead ancestors sacrifices of food to keep them happy that they might protect them. That is veneration. That is sin.

 

[Zenas]

I did no such thing. God required that the Temple be constructed exactly according to His instructions because it was an earthly representation of the heavenly "temple" of God. The mercy seat was a representation of the true mercy seat of God in heaven. Only God is to be worshiped, which is why your post is so disturbing. To pour blood on the mercy seat of "Mary" is to believe that Mary can grant forgiveness of sin.
You will not find in ALL of scripture that the mercy seat belongs to anyone other than God.

Your logic is flawed. Would you say that pouring blood on the ark means the ark can forgive sins? Of course not. Then why would you imply that pouring blood on Mary means Mary can forgive sins? If you will think about this and set your logic straight, you may find this concept less odious. I don't know of anyone who believes Mary can forgive sins. Also I'm not as familiar with Catholic prayers as some on this board seem to be but I have never seen a prayer where Mary was asked for forgiveness of sins.

Your imagination and eisegesis. Cults leaders do this all the time to "prove" to their subjects that they are the "Christ".

I'm not saying you're wrong but I haven't seen any examples of this.

Do a study on the Temple and all of it's furnishings and what they represented. Understanding the OT is key to understanding the New Covenant. You will be astonished at all the times you see Christ in the OT, even though He was not revealed until the New.

I did such a study of the tabernacle about two weeks ago in connection with my Sunday School lesson. And you're right. You see Jesus all the time in the Old Testament. A few examples would be Melchizedek, Isaac (being sacrificed), the bronze serpent, the passover lamb, etc., etc. So . . . if types of Christ are common in the O.T., why is it unthinkable that there would be types of Mary as well?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

However, the ark was venerated by the people of Israel. Yes, venerated, not worshiped. There is a difference. We only worship God but we venerate a lot of things. Go to Washington, D.C. and look at some of the natinal shrines. The Lincoln Memorial and Jefferson Memorial come to mind. These men are venerated. I honor my deceased parents with a picture of them hanging in a prominent place in my house. Another form of veneration. But none of this amounts to worship.

You present a fine example of thinking for one's self Zenas! We do not worship Icons or Mary for that matter any more than Americans worship the American flag.

Saluting the flag is a type of veneration, and just as we do not venerate wood and paint, but rather the persons depicted in the Icon, patriotic Americans do not venerate cloth and dye, but rather the country which the flag represents.

Also, the Jews understand the difference between veneration and worship (adoration). A pious Jew kisses the Mezuza on his door post, he kisses his prayer shawl before putting it on, he kisses the tallenin, before he binds them to his forehead, and arm. He kisses the Torah before he reads it in the Synagogue. No doubt, Christ did likewise, when reading the Scriptures in the Synagogue.

In XC
-

 

[Agnus_Dei]

So . . . if types of Christ are common in the O.T., why is it unthinkable that there would be types of Mary as well?

Correct again, there's many "types" in the Bible and yes we do refer to Mary as a "type", for she did carry God in her womb...what the Universe cannot contain was contained in her tiny womb! What do you think the angle visiting Mary thought of this young woman and the responsibility she was about to undertake. A human being, a woman, was going to carry God in her womb. It was an unthinkable task, a human carrying God in her womb...and we have beautiful hymns that we sing to remember this magnificent event.

In XC
-

 

[Amy.G]

Your logic is flawed.

No it's not. The Ark and Mary have nothing in common. Since you have studied this recently, what do all the components of the Ark mean? Why was the blood applied to the mercy seat? What did the mercy seat represent?

if types of Christ are common in the O.T., why is it unthinkable that there would be types of Mary as well?

What is Mary a "type" of? What is taught about Mary in the OT other than a virgin would give birth as a sign of the Messiah?

 

[DHK]

Correct again, there's many "types" in the Bible and yes we do refer to Mary as a "type", for she did carry God in her womb...what the Universe cannot contain was contained in her tiny womb! What do you think the angle visiting Mary thought of this young woman and the responsibility she was about to undertake. A human being, a woman, was going to carry God in her womb. It was an unthinkable task, a human carrying God in her womb...and we have beautiful hymns that we sing to remember this magnificent event.

In XC
-

You cannot read into the Bible that which is not there. Otherwise the Bible becomes a useless book of fairy tales and loses its Divine characteristic. I believe in the Word of God, the Scriptures as God revealed them to mankind, not useless fairy tales.
You cannot read into the Bible things that are not there.

 

[Revmitchell]

These are Amy's words from Post No. 28, not mine.
If you equate the ark with God, then you are saying it is worthy of worship. I was shocked to read this from someone as fundamental as Amy has shown herself to be. And no, I don't think she would be an ark worshiper. I don't think she meant to say what she did say, so my response was mostly hyperbole.

As for demonstrating in the Bible where the ark was worshiped, I won't try because, like you, I know it isn't in there. However, the ark was venerated by the people of Israel. Yes, venerated, not worshiped. There is a difference. We only worship God but we venerate a lot of things. Go to Washington, D.C. and look at some of the natinal shrines. The Lincoln Memorial and Jefferson Memorial come to mind. These men are venerated. I honor my deceased parents with a picture of them hanging in a prominent place in my house. Another form of veneration. But none of this amounts to worship.

Amy when you see posts like this it is clear they have stopped being intellectually honest.

 

[Amy.G]

The Ark of the Covenant as a Prophetic Type

Dr. David R. Reagan

Not only is the Bible resplendent with prophetic verses, it is also full of prophetic types. Prophecy in type is symbolic prophecy. Think of it as prophecy that has come alive, embodied in the life of a person, ceremony or thing.

Everything about the Ark of the Covenant was symbolic of the Messiah. It was made of wood, indicating the Messiah would be a human. It was overlaid with gold, signifying the Messiah would be divine.

The Ark contained three objects - the tablets of stone, a pot of manna, and Aaron's rod that budded. The tablets signified that the Messiah would have the Law of God in His heart. The manna meant the Messiah would be the Bread of Life. The rod with blossoms was a prophecy that the Messiah would arise from the dead.
The lid of the Ark was called the Mercy Seat. Once a year the High Priest sprinkled blood on the Mercy Seat to atone for the sins of Israel. The Mercy Seat pointed to the fact that through the work of the Messiah the mercy of God would cover the Law. The blood foreshadowed the fact that the Messiah would have to shed His own blood to atone for our sins.

Jesus fulfilled every prophetic type of the Ark. He was God in the flesh (John 10:30). He had the Law in His heart (Matthew 5:17). He declared Himself to be the "Bread of Life" (John 6:35). And He shed His blood on the Cross, atoning for our sins and covering the Law with Grace (Romans 3:21-26).From Lamb/Lion Ministries

This is orthodox in the Christian faith. The Ark is a symbol of God/Messiah not Mary. Saying that the Ark is a symbol or "type" of Mary is blasphemy. And I don't use that word lightly. That is why I said equating Mary to the Ark is equating her to God, not that the Ark is God.

 

[Darron Steele]

I have to agree with Steaver here. That link was unwarranted. It was about a soccer match, matches that often turn violent and ugly no matter where they are played and no matter which religion is involved. That time it was in a country that was predominately Catholic. The same thing often happens in England. It happens because of the teams that play without regard to religion. To use that link for Catholic bashing, when even protestants do the same thing at their own venues is hypocritical.

Well, I am sorry DHK, but the only difference between
a) those murdering thugs, versus
b) people here who love to dig up and air dirt about Catholics, and stretch the truth to make more such dirt, and invite others to join them,
is the degree. It was the same motive: contempt for Catholics.

If someone was to obsessively do this stuff about Alive In Christ, Steaver, or you, all of you would see what it was about. You would know that no matter how s/he rationalized it or spiritualized it, it was maliciously-motivated.

Unprovoked railing against anyone just for jollies, and soliciting the same by others, is wrong regardless of who it is done against. Acting on grudges is wrong regardless of who it is done against.

Catholics are mistaken people -- but they are people. They ought to be treated like it.

Luke 6:31 "as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise" (KJV) applies to Catholics just it would apply to you folks.

I have shown you all what is wrong with this. You folks seek to justify it and rationalize it and spiritualize it and make it appear to be something good. Not one of you folks' rationalizations, spiritualizations, or sugar-coatings would fool the Lord; He is omniscient and impartial.

If He decides to get your attention in real life, you will have no basis to whine that you were not warned.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Agnus...

"We do not worship Icons or Mary for that matter any more than Americans worship the American flag. Saluting the flag is a type of veneration,

That is utter nonsense, Agnus. I would think that you would be ashamed to post something that absurd and ridiculous.

Just the same as when we salute the flag?

When do we ever declare a FLAG to be the KING or QUEEN of Gods heaven, as the Orthodox do here...

"Our Lady of Lourdes, virgin and mother, queen of heaven,

When do we look at our FLAG, and expect it to give us favor with God in heaven regarding answered prayer, as the Orthodox do here...

" you will look with mercy on our present petition and secure for us a favorable answer"

When do we ask a FLAG to cure our sickness, and know our wants troubles and suffering, as the Orthodox do here...

"Mother of mercy, Health of the sick, Refuge of sinners, Comforter of the afflicted, you know our wants, our troubles, our sufferings deign to cast upon us a look of mercy."

And where do we ever ask a FLAG to physically and spirtually HEAL us as the Orthodox do here...

"many have obtained the cure of their infirmities, both spiritual and physical. We come, therefore, with the most unbounded confidence to implore your maternal intercession. Obtain for us, O loving Mother, the granting of our request."

(All quotes are from the original link I posted earlier in this thread)



The Orthodox in these prayers are atributing to a sinner saved by grace (Mary) atributes and powers that ONLY AMIGHTY GOD posesses.

You Orthodox, as well as the Catholics have...a...GODDESS.

And you prove it by WORSHIPPING your Goddess (a counterfiet "Mary") as any *goddess* would logically be worshipped.

God have mercy

 

[steaver]

I have shown you all what is wrong with this. You folks seek to justify it and rationalize it and spiritualize it and make it appear to be something good. Not one of you folks' rationalizations, spiritualizations, or sugar-coatings would fool the Lord; He is omniscient and impartial.

If He decides to get your attention in real life, you will have no basis to whine that you were not warned.

Darron, what are you talking about? Who here has personally murdered a person for worshipping Mary? I personally have set my heart to rebuke and reprove those who worship Mary or those who commit any other sin that they might be enlightened and repent. If we have the truth and say nothing we go against the teachings of the bible.

:jesus:

 

[DHK]

These are Amy's words from Post No. 28, not mine.

Why the dishonesty?
Look here and read again:
http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1442475&postcount=33

 

[Zenas]

Why the dishonesty?
Look here and read again:
http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1442475&postcount=33

DHK, your link is to Post 33 (mine), not to Post 28 (Amy's). I don't know how to do links so here is her entire post. I have taken the liberty of highlighting the controversial sentence.

This is pure blasphemy!

I'm only going to address one point. The lid of the Ark was called the "mercy seat". Once a year, blood was applied by the high priest for "atonement". This is a symbol of the mercy seat of GOD. To equate Mary with the ark is to equate her with GOD. Blood is not offered to Mary for the forgiveness of sins.
To say that the Ark is a "type" of Mary is nothing more than pure, unadulterated blasphemy and heresy.

In view of Amy's adoption of David Reagan's take on the ark, it may be that she really believes this.

Honestly DHK, I don't see how you can be so brilliant at times and at other times appear so dense. It's almost like there are two different people posting under "DHK". And I don't appreciate being called dishonest when I have been totally forthright about this.

 

[DHK]

DHK, your link is to Post 33 (mine), not to Post 28 (Amy's). I don't know how to do links so here is her entire post. I have taken the liberty of highlighting the controversial sentence. In view of Amy's adoption of David Reagan's take on the ark, it may be that she really believes this.

Honestly DHK, I don't see how you can be so brilliant at times and at other times appear so dense. It's almost like there are two different people posting under "DHK". And I don't appreciate being called dishonest when I have been totally forthright about this.

Here is your post #42

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHK
No one said the ark should be worshiped. Where did you get that from? Are you putting words in people's mouths. You have yet to demonstrate in the Bible where the ark was worshiped. Again Biblical illiteracy.
Do you know that if all the Catholics gathered all the pieces of the cross that they venerate they would have enough would to build a house. :grin:
Why do they worship wood? Does God want them to do that. Do you think that if they found the actual original MSS of the Bible that people would worship them as well? I do. The same goes for the ark. Use your common sense here.

These are Amy's words from Post No. 28, not mine.

Again compare with:

Originally Posted by DHK
Why the dishonesty?
Look here and read again:
http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php...5&postcount=33

 

[Revmitchell]

Honestly DHK, I don't see how you can be so brilliant at times and at other times appear so dense. It's almost like there are two different people posting under "DHK". And I don't appreciate being called dishonest when I have been totally forthright about this.

Actually your twisting of Amy's words are quite dishonest. And that assumes you are intelligent enough to understand adult English.

 

[Darron Steele]

... the only difference between
a) those murdering thugs, versus
b) people here who love to dig up and air dirt about Catholics, and stretch the truth to make more such dirt, and invite others to join them,
is the degree. It was the same motive: contempt for Catholics.

If someone was to obsessively do this stuff about Alive In Christ, Steaver, or you, all of you would see what it was about. You would know that no matter how s/he rationalized it or spiritualized it, it was maliciously-motivated.

Unprovoked railing against anyone just for jollies, and soliciting the same by others, is wrong regardless of who it is done against. Acting on grudges is wrong regardless of who it is done against.

Catholics are mistaken people -- but they are people. They ought to be treated like it.

Luke 6:31 "as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise" (KJV) applies to Catholics just it would apply to you folks.

I have shown you all what is wrong with this. You folks seek to justify it and rationalize it and spiritualize it and make it appear to be something good. Not one of you folks' rationalizations, spiritualizations, or sugar-coatings would fool the Lord; He is omniscient and impartial.

If He decides to get your attention in real life, you will have no basis to whine that you were not warned.

Darron, what are you talking about? Who here has personally murdered a person for worshipping Mary?

Your contempt for Catholics has not led you to murder -- so far. Hopefully, you are a lot farther away than those thugs were.

You obsessive Catholic bashers turn a blind eye to yourselves. Contempt for Catholics led those thugs to murder one. Your contempt for Catholics has thus far led you to dig up dirt on Catholics and air it, and stretch the truth to make more such dirt.

The cause of both was the same: contempt for Catholics. Just because you have not indulged your grudge as far as those thugs did does not mean you should not be concerned.

I personally have set my heart to rebuke and reprove those who worship Mary or those who commit any other sin that they might be enlightened and repent. If we have the truth and say nothing we go against the teachings of the bible.

:jesus:

That is why I am trying to help you.

This thread was not motivated by a desire to help Catholics or any people who engage in behavior very similar to idolatry. This is a `I got something juicy against Catholics; let us talk about it' thread.

You people go against the teachings of the Bible with your actions against Catholics.

Catholics have their issues. You people who want to vent your grudges and bash Catholics have your issues.

When you people actually want to help Catholics, rather than vent your grudges, let me know. These sorts of threads, with their obvious grudge-motivated nature, alienate Catholics and make them less-inclined to heed what Bible-centered Christians have to say. When you want to set aside your grudges to help unsaved Catholics, I will be happy to try to assist you.

This thread is not about `exposing idolatry'; it is about `I got something juicy against Catholics; let us talk about all the bad things we can say about Catholics.'

Paralleling your alleged sentiment, if I do not try to bring to your attention the evil you have joined into, I would be negligent.

... the only difference between
a) those murdering thugs, versus
b) people here who love to dig up and air dirt about Catholics, and stretch the truth to make more such dirt, and invite others to join them,
is the degree. It was the same motive: contempt for Catholics.

If someone was to obsessively do this stuff about Alive In Christ, Steaver, or you, all of you would see what it was about. You would know that no matter how s/he rationalized it or spiritualized it, it was maliciously-motivated.

Unprovoked railing against anyone just for jollies, and soliciting the same by others, is wrong regardless of who it is done against. Acting on grudges is wrong regardless of who it is done against.

Catholics are mistaken people -- but they are people. They ought to be treated like it.

Luke 6:31 "as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise" (KJV) applies to Catholics just it would apply to you folks.

I have shown you all what is wrong with this. You folks seek to justify it and rationalize it and spiritualize it and make it appear to be something good. Not one of you folks' rationalizations, spiritualizations, or sugar-coatings would fool the Lord; He is omniscient and impartial.

If He decides to get your attention in real life, you will have no basis to whine that you were not warned.

 

[DHK]

Actually your twisting of Amy's words are quite dishonest. And that assumes you are intelligent enough to understand adult English.

It is. He assumes that I cannot recognize my own writing or what I have written. And then he attributes my words to Amy, thus accusing Amy of plagiarizing me! What an accusation!

 

[Revmitchell]

It is. He assumes that I cannot recognize my own writing or what I have written. And then he attributes my words to Amy, thus accusing Amy of plagiarizing me! What an accusation!

I am seeing more and more of this type of dishonesty on the board. I have found the ignore list works quite well. Dealing with them in most cases is futile.