Did a Calvinist say this?

[Reformed]

So, God , not the person makes the decision? God chooses to "leave them to themselves" in sin?

The issue I have with your line of questioning is that it seems to make God look unfair; that God is capricious and mean because God does not save all. We need to understand that one of God's attributes is holiness. God cannot abide sin. Sin cannot enter into His presence. If God is fair than He either needs to save all or save none. That He chooses to save some is an act of mercy and grace. Shall we criticize God for this (Romans 9:21)?

 

[Reynolds]

I think you are missing the point that sinners (both those who are saved and who perish in their sins) do choose.

I believe they can, but how do you "choose" when there is no free will? You and Reformed seem to be saying the exact opposite.

 

[Reynolds]

The issue I have with your line of questioning is that it seems to make God look unfair; that God is capricious and mean because God does not save all. We need to understand that one of God's attributes is holiness. God cannot abide sin. Sin cannot enter into His presence. If God is fair than He either needs to save all or save none. That He chooses to save some is an act of mercy and grace. Shall we criticize God for this (Romans 9:21)?

I don't criticize Him. I just want to be clear on whether God or a man decides whether or not a person can be saved. I seem to be getting different answers from different Calvinists.

 

[JonC]

I believe they can, but how do you "choose" when there is no free will.

It depends on what you mean by "free-will". Again, the Canons of Dort (Calvinism) holds that the Fall did not remove from men the human will. Men have the freedom to choose.

If you mean a libertarian free-will (or a freedom of the will from the influences of human nature, experience, raising, cultural influences, the work of the Holy Spirit, ect.) then I also deny it exists. But this doesn't matter because the freedom to choose is not dependent on being freed from human nature. The choice remains free.

 

[Reynolds]

It depends on what you mean by "free-will". Again, the Canons of Dort (Calvinism) holds that the Fall did not remove from men the human will. Men have the freedom to choose.

If you mean a libertarian free-will (or a freedom of the will from the influences of human nature, experience, raising, cultural influences, the work of the Holy Spirit, ect.) then I also deny it exists. But this doesn't matter because the freedom to choose is not dependent on being freed from human nature. The choice remains free.

I mean free will like is in your first paragraph. This is why the more I look at Calvinism, the more confusing it gets. I have not found one thing I disagree with you on in this thread. You I am assuming are a Calvinist. What you are saying and what Reformed is saying seems to be very different. Macarthur seems to be completely hard line on the issue. https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/90-296/the-doctrine-of-gods-effectual-call

 

[Reformed]

I don't criticize Him. I just want to be clear on whether God or a man decides whether or not a person can be saved. I seem to be getting different answers from different Calvinists.

What you're getting are different answers from different Calvinists on the oft debated topic of double-predestination. Does God predestine not only the Elect, but also the non-Elect? One camp believes that God does, indeed, predestine who will be saved and who will be damned. The other camp believes that God predestines the Elect, but passes over those who are already in their sins. What is not open for debate is that all people are deserving of hell, and those who are numbered among the Elect are predestined solely as an act of mercy and grace on the part of the Father.

 

[Reformed]

Reynolds,

Here is a brief article by Kevin DeYoung on the topic of supra and infralapsarianism. Before you crazy over the terms, read the short article and it will help add clarity to my previous post. It will sort of let you into the theological debate world between Reformed believers. Here is the article: THEOLOGICAL PRIMER: SUPRALAPSARIANISM AND INFRALAPSARIANISM

 

[JonC]

I mean free will like is in your first paragraph. This is why the more I look at Calvinism, the more confusing it gets. I have not found one thing I disagree with you on in this thread. You I am assuming are a Calvinist. What you are saying and what Reformed is saying seems to be very different. Macarthur seems to be completely hard line on the issue. https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/90-296/the-doctrine-of-gods-effectual-call

There are different views within Calvinistic soteriology just as there are within free-will theology. I like MacArthur as a pastor but not so much when it comes to theology.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 1 AM Pacific.

 

[Reynolds]

Reynolds,

Here is a brief article by Kevin DeYoung on the topic of supra and infralapsarianism. Before you crazy over the terms, read the short article and it will help add clarity to my previous post. It will sort of let you into the theological debate world between Reformed believers. Here is the article: THEOLOGICAL PRIMER: SUPRALAPSARIANISM AND INFRALAPSARIANISM

Thanks, I will study on it.

 

[Reformed]

Thanks, I will study on it.

Reynolds,

Since the powers-that-be are going to close the thread, feel free to start a new thread to continue the discussion. I am more than happy to continue discussing.

Thanks.

 

[TCassidy]

I believe they can, but how do you "choose" when there is no free will?

Because "free will" has nothing to do with making choices.

Everybody, both the saved and the lost, make choices every day.

But neither have "free will." The lost person's will is in bondage to the law of sin and death. The saved person's will is bound to the law of New Life in Christ.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

 

[Reformed]

Because "free will" has nothing to do with making choices.

Everybody, both the saved and the lost, make choices every day.

But neither have "free will." The lost person's will is in bondage to the law of sin and death. The saved person's will is bound to the law of New Life in Christ.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

I use the term "autonomous free will" to describe the type of free will that we do not have. I prefer to call a believer's free will as a liberated will. As you said, the will of the sinner is in bondage. Once it is freed from bondage (as a result of conversion), it is now liberated, and is able to obey God, something it could not do prior to conversion.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

this thread is closed.

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 1 AM Pacific.