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Featured Did a Calvinist say this?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Reynolds, Jul 9, 2017.

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  1. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    First of all, I never said that "man prevails" over God, nor even implied it.

    Refusing to accept Jesus Christ as savior is not "prevailing" over God.
     
    #121 SheepWhisperer, Jul 12, 2017
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Not in Calvinism, but in non Cal theology it would be, as God would be honoring "free will"
     
    #122 Yeshua1, Jul 12, 2017
  3. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    So it still boils down to God saves who He saves and the rest will die lost?
     
    #123 Reynolds, Jul 12, 2017
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God has decided to save from sinful humanity a people set into Himself, and the rest are left to do as they would normally desire to do, as in keep on rejecting Christ in order to get saved!
     
    #124 Yeshua1, Jul 12, 2017
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  5. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    So, God , not the person makes the decision? God chooses to "leave them to themselves" in sin?
     
    #125 Reynolds, Jul 12, 2017
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The sinner makes the decision to receive Jesus and get saved, but the Lord has to firsy enable them to be able to make that choice "freely"
     
    #126 Yeshua1, Jul 12, 2017
  7. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    It boils down to:
    All are dead in trespasses and sin.
    God will make some alive in Christ Jesus by His grace.
     
    #127 MennoSota, Jul 12, 2017
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  8. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    God sees that all have sinned. The law condemns all humanity.

    God chooses to pardon some because...He can. The rest are justly condemned. The few are saved by God's grace and by His grace alone.

    That is the power a Sovereign King has. He can pardon whom he wills. He can imprison whom He wills.
    God is a just King. He only condemns those who rightly deserve condemnation based upon breaking his laws. He only pardons because He is gracious and merciful.
    Sovereignty is loved or hated based upon the citizens condemnation or pardon. Humans hate God's Sovereignty until God pardons. God, as the Sovereign King, is under no obligation to pardon those who are rightly condemned.
    This is a Judicial issue. God is Judge. Humans are not. Humans cannot choose to have the Judge pardon them. Humans are at the mercy of the Judge's decision.

    Does that bother you?
     
    #128 MennoSota, Jul 12, 2017
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  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I was addressing your comment against "irresistible grace", which speaks to the grace and not the man. I agree people reject God without prevailing over Him.

    Calvinism (in the Canons of Dort) affirm that men do reject God's call of the gospel and the offer of Christ. What you are arguing against is the doctrine that God will accomplish His purposes.

    I believe your disagreement is much earlier than efficacious grace and this disagreement (I believe with predestination) is coloring your remarks here.

    In other words, perhaps your argument would be better if it was not against God accomplishing what He has determined to accomplish and instead focused on exactly what God determined to accomplish.
     
    #129 JonC, Jul 12, 2017
  10. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    No. It does not bother me any more than the consequences of any of the other alternate views of salvation process bother me.
    I appreciate the direct response. One of my hang ups with Calvinism is that many Calvinists try to avoid this issue. You did not; you answered it.
     
    #130 Reynolds, Jul 12, 2017
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    None can stop the determined Will of God.
     
    #131 Yeshua1, Jul 12, 2017
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  12. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    But the sinner can't choose no???
     
    #132 Reynolds, Jul 12, 2017
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The person dead in sin, as we all once were, can only make the decision to keep on rejecting Jesus and stay lost.
     
    #133 Yeshua1, Jul 12, 2017
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  14. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    He makes the only decision he can make? When The Spirit calls the person, he then makes the only decision he can make?
    This view returns the decision to God, no matter how you word it.
     
    #134 Reynolds, Jul 12, 2017
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    In the ultimate sense, all salvation is of the Lord!
     
    #135 Yeshua1, Jul 12, 2017
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  16. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    How can anyone avoid the issue if one is trying to be honest with the text?

    The question is:
    When looking at the various views of salvation, which one is best supported by scripture, apart from presuppostions?

    In other words, which view allows biblical observation to dictate it's conclusion?

    If we are honest, that is what we should all be striving for.

    What saith the Lord?
     
    #136 MennoSota, Jul 12, 2017
  17. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    We always strive to hold to scripture in the most strict sense that the rules interpretation apply. In this area, there simply seems to be something scripture does not tell us. This is one of the areas I consider a mystery. God had no need to create a race of robots following a script. If man has no freedom to choose or "free will", then that's exactly what He did.
     
    #137 Reynolds, Jul 12, 2017
  18. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    You are certainly confused about how to use the QUOTE function.
     
    #138 TCassidy, Jul 12, 2017
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  19. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Yes. If anyone dies outside of Christ they are condemned. There is no getting around that.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
     
    #139 Reformed, Jul 12, 2017
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  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think you are missing the point that sinners (both those who are saved and who perish in their sins) do choose.
     
    #140 JonC, Jul 12, 2017
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