Did a Calvinist say this?

[SheepWhisperer]

I agree with most of your reply (and will add that most Calvinists would as well), the exception being your statement that with grace man prevails over God,. And yes, an example of this would be appreciated.

First of all, I never said that "man prevails" over God, nor even implied it.

I resisted God's call to salvation for years (and know others who did as well....some of us were just as thick headed lost as we are saved ).

His error is not in accepting the resistance of men but of denying the prevailing power of God to accomplish His will.

Refusing to accept Jesus Christ as savior is not "prevailing" over God.

 

[Yeshua1]

First of all, I never said that "man prevails" over God, nor even implied it.


Refusing to accept Jesus Christ as savior is not "prevailing" over God.

Not in Calvinism, but in non Cal theology it would be, as God would be honoring "free will"

 

[Reynolds]

No one can resist what is termed "the effectual call" of God. Let me explain...

We know from scripture that man is spiritually dead (1 Cor. 2:14; Eph. 2:1). In fact, the Greek word for dead in Eph. 2:1 (nekros) is the same word used for a corpse. A person that is dead is incapable of anything. Since Paul uses the term to describe the spiritual condition of an unbeliever, we can posit that the unbeliever is incapable of anything resembling spiritual life. It takes a unilateral act of God to change that condition. We see that unilateral work of God in Eph. 1:5. While we were still dead in our trespasses and sin "but God". God made us alive while we were spiritually unresponsive. Everything up to this point is the work of God, not the work of man. By the time we get to Romans 10:9-10, the unbeliever has been regenerated. Now we see the believer confessing...freely confessing.



Man does have a choice, but it is a choice with a will that has been newly freed from the bondage of sin. Martin Luther touched on this in his book Bondage of the Will. This analogy will not do the discussion justice, but imagine you were marooned on a deserted island with hardly enough food to keep you alive. You are eventually rescued, but you are emaciated physically. Your cheeks are sunken in, and you ribs easily show through your body. To celebrate your rescue you are served a bountiful meal. Every delicacy you can imagine is put before you. Could you resist partaking of that feast? I seriously doubt it. Multiply that by tens of thousands and we may have a slight understanding of what it would be like for a person to be illumined to the truth (by the Holy Spirit), who understands their pitiful condition, and still rejects the Gospel. To quote the Princess Bride, "Inconceivable!" Once the will of the individual has been set free, there is no greater desire of the will than to accept the free gift of eternal life.

So, does man choose after being illuminated? Yes. Does he choose freely? Yes. Can he choose to reject Christ? No. He cannot reject because the true need of his liberated will has been filled.

So it still boils down to God saves who He saves and the rest will die lost?

 

[Yeshua1]

So it still boils down to God saves who He saves and the rest will die lost?

God has decided to save from sinful humanity a people set into Himself, and the rest are left to do as they would normally desire to do, as in keep on rejecting Christ in order to get saved!

 

[Reynolds]

God has decided to save from sinful humanity a people set into Himself, and the rest are left to do as they would normally desire to do, as in keep on rejecting Christ in order to get saved!

So, God , not the person makes the decision? God chooses to "leave them to themselves" in sin?

 

[Yeshua1]

So, God , not the person makes the decision? God chooses to "leave them to themselves" in sin?

The sinner makes the decision to receive Jesus and get saved, but the Lord has to firsy enable them to be able to make that choice "freely"

 

[MennoSota]

So it still boils down to God saves who He saves and the rest will die lost?

It boils down to:
All are dead in trespasses and sin.
God will make some alive in Christ Jesus by His grace.

 

[MennoSota]

So, God , not the person makes the decision? God chooses to "leave them to themselves" in sin?

God sees that all have sinned. The law condemns all humanity.

God chooses to pardon some because...He can. The rest are justly condemned. The few are saved by God's grace and by His grace alone.

That is the power a Sovereign King has. He can pardon whom he wills. He can imprison whom He wills.
God is a just King. He only condemns those who rightly deserve condemnation based upon breaking his laws. He only pardons because He is gracious and merciful.
Sovereignty is loved or hated based upon the citizens condemnation or pardon. Humans hate God's Sovereignty until God pardons. God, as the Sovereign King, is under no obligation to pardon those who are rightly condemned.
This is a Judicial issue. God is Judge. Humans are not. Humans cannot choose to have the Judge pardon them. Humans are at the mercy of the Judge's decision.

Does that bother you?

 

[JonC]

Refusing to accept Jesus Christ as savior is not "prevailing" over God.

I was addressing your comment against "irresistible grace", which speaks to the grace and not the man. I agree people reject God without prevailing over Him.

Calvinism (in the Canons of Dort) affirm that men do reject God's call of the gospel and the offer of Christ. What you are arguing against is the doctrine that God will accomplish His purposes.

I believe your disagreement is much earlier than efficacious grace and this disagreement (I believe with predestination) is coloring your remarks here.

In other words, perhaps your argument would be better if it was not against God accomplishing what He has determined to accomplish and instead focused on exactly what God determined to accomplish.

 

[Reynolds]

God sees that all have sinned. The law condemns all humanity.

God chooses to pardon some because...He can. The rest are justly condemned. The few are saved by God's grace and by His grace alone.

That is the power a Sovereign King has. He can pardon whom he wills. He can imprison whom He wills.
God is a just King. He only condemns those who rightly deserve condemnation based upon breaking his laws. He only pardons because He is gracious and merciful.
Sovereignty is loved or hated based upon the citizens condemnation or pardon. Humans hate God's Sovereignty until God pardons. God, as the Sovereign King, is under no obligation to pardon those who are rightly condemned.
This is a Judicial issue. God is Judge. Humans are not. Humans cannot choose to have the Judge pardon them. Humans are at the mercy of the Judge's decision.

Does that bother you?

No. It does not bother me any more than the consequences of any of the other alternate views of salvation process bother me.
I appreciate the direct response. One of my hang ups with Calvinism is that many Calvinists try to avoid this issue. You did not; you answered it.

 

[Yeshua1]

I was addressing your comment against "irresistible grace", which speaks to the grace and not the man. I agree people reject God without prevailing over Him.

Calvinism (in the Canons of Dort) affirm that men do reject God's call of the gospel and the offer of Christ. What you are arguing against is the doctrine that God will accomplish His purposes.

I believe your disagreement is much earlier than efficacious grace and this disagreement (I believe with predestination) is coloring your remarks here.

In other words, perhaps your argument would be better if it was not against God accomplishing what He has determined to accomplish and instead focused on exactly what God determined to accomplish.

None can stop the determined Will of God.

 

[Reynolds]

The sinner makes the decision to receive Jesus and get saved, but the Lord has to firsy enable them to be able to make that choice "freely"

But the sinner can't choose no???

 

[Yeshua1]

So, God , not the person makes the decision? God chooses to "leave them to themselves" in sin?

The person dead in sin, as we all once were, can only make the decision to keep on rejecting Jesus and stay lost.

 

[Reynolds]

The person dead in sin, as we all once were, can only make the decision to keep on rejecting Jesus and stay lost.

He makes the only decision he can make? When The Spirit calls the person, he then makes the only decision he can make?
This view returns the decision to God, no matter how you word it.

 

[Yeshua1]

In the ultimate sense, all salvation is of the Lord!

 

[MennoSota]

No. It does not bother me any more than the consequences of any of the other alternate views of salvation process bother me.
I appreciate the direct response. One of my hang ups with Calvinism is that many Calvinists try to avoid this issue. You did not; you answered it.

How can anyone avoid the issue if one is trying to be honest with the text?

The question is:
When looking at the various views of salvation, which one is best supported by scripture, apart from presuppostions?

In other words, which view allows biblical observation to dictate it's conclusion?

If we are honest, that is what we should all be striving for.

What saith the Lord?

 

[Reynolds]

How can anyone avoid the issue if one is trying to be honest with the text?

The question is:
When looking at the various views of salvation, which one is best supported by scripture, apart from presuppostions?

In other words, which view allows biblical observation to dictate it's conclusion?

If we are honest, that is what we should all be striving for.

What saith the Lord?

We always strive to hold to scripture in the most strict sense that the rules interpretation apply. In this area, there simply seems to be something scripture does not tell us. This is one of the areas I consider a mystery. God had no need to create a race of robots following a script. If man has no freedom to choose or "free will", then that's exactly what He did.

 

[TCassidy]

I'm neither confused

You are certainly confused about how to use the QUOTE function.

 

[Reformed]

So it still boils down to God saves who He saves and the rest will die lost?

Yes. If anyone dies outside of Christ they are condemned. There is no getting around that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[JonC]

But the sinner can't choose no???

I think you are missing the point that sinners (both those who are saved and who perish in their sins) do choose.