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Featured Did a Calvinist say this?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Reynolds, Jul 9, 2017.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I know you don't fit those labels (both sides seem dependent on the idea of individual election).

    Insofar as Paul goes I don't believe that applicable here. Paul was speaking of those who follow other men and their doctrine. Calvinism and Arminianism refer to a set of beliefs and not really those men. It is no different than me referring to myself as a Baptist instead of just saying "Christian".
     
    #81 JonC, Jul 11, 2017
  2. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    I seriously doubt Adam and Eve were English speakers.

    Psalm 119:140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.
    Psalm 12
    6The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
    7Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

    God's Word and God's "words" were intended to be delivered to mankind. If God Almighty wasn't able to "preserve", and provide us with "very pure", "pure words" "purified seven times" enough to perfectly convey what He wanted each man to know, in his own language, without adding anything or leaving anything out, then He dropped the ball somehwere and the "words" above must be lies. But I do not believe that to be the case.
     
    #82 SheepWhisperer, Jul 11, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2017
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  3. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I reject it altogether

    It is different. What Paul was referencing is exactly the same thing as this.
     
    #83 Revmitchell, Jul 11, 2017
  4. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    I am a Calvinist, but I am not a follower of John Calvin. I disagree with his position on baptism and his ecclesiology. I agree with his position on predestination and election. Since those two doctrines are typically referred to as "Calvinism", I don't flee from the term, I qualify it. I have a good friend who who does not believe in Reformed theology. He gets irritated when I refer to him as a Synergist, but he readily admits he believes in the Synergist position. When I said to him, "Then what is the issue?" His response was, "I just don't like labels, even if the label is accurate." I had a good chuckle about that. So, when we talk theology, and especially predestination and election, I refer to him as "He who shall not be labeled (even if the label is accurate)."

    Much to do about nothing, really.


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    #84 Reformed, Jul 11, 2017
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  5. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Much ado about Nothing to those who like the labels and see them as effective. It is a big deal for those who want to follow scripture.
     
    #85 Revmitchell, Jul 11, 2017
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I disagree on this point. I don't think Paul was referring to theological differences (Calvinism, Arminianism, Amyraldianism, Free-Will Theology, Dispensationalism, Covenant Theology, Baptist, Methodist, Reformed, Anabaptist, ect) but to people who consider themselves disciples of men and allow this to divide them rather than being united as disciples of Christ. If you believe that Calvinists"follow John Calvin" and Arminians "follow James Arminius" and Dispensatinalists "follow John Darby" as some were saying they were disciples or followers of Apollos or Paul, then I think you may have misunderstood exactly what those distinctions are.

    For example, from previous conversations I think it safe to say that you hold to Penal Substitution as articulated by John Calvin (a "sin debt" within a "criminal law" sense).Does this mean you are a follower of John Calvin? No, of course not. And those who hold to Calvinism are not either (what we call Calvinism is more Beza than Calvin anyway).
     
    #86 JonC, Jul 11, 2017
  7. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    If the doctrines are named after them men then it is a given. You are following after the men.
     
    #87 Revmitchell, Jul 11, 2017
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That's like saying Baptists follow John the Baptist.

    "Calvinism" was taken to refer to John Calvin's doctrine of Communion as compared to Luther's. The reason we use the term is that the soteriological distinction is associated with the soteriological defense against Arminianism determining what was orthodox within Calvinism.

    You are more than welcome to argue against the name used to refer to the doctrine, but saying Calvinists are followers of John Calvin is dishonest and I believe that you know this.
     
    #88 JonC, Jul 11, 2017
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  9. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    "Calvinism" says that Man is so depraved that he cannot respond to the Gospel, that God determined who would be saved from the beginning of time, that God's atonement is "limited" and that a person cannot "resist" God's Grace. "
    "Arminianism", as little as I know of it, teaches that a saved person can later become lost. I reject all of the "Tulip" "points" and the Arminian one (the one I know about)
     
    #89 SheepWhisperer, Jul 11, 2017
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    You have to hold to one of them as true!
     
    #90 Yeshua1, Jul 11, 2017
  11. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    Calvinism or Arminian?
    No sir, I do not hold to any point of the "tulip" and I believe in "once saved always saved".
     
    #91 SheepWhisperer, Jul 11, 2017
  12. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Wow. That explains a lot.

    1. Total depravity. What part of man, his body, soul, or spirit, do you believe escaped the effects of the fall and remained holy and pure enabling the person to come to Christ on his own merits rather than on the sacrifice of Christ?

    2. Unconditional election. What condition of perfection do you think a person can achieve that gives him the right to come to God apart from the sacrifice of Christ?

    3. Limited atonement. If the atonement is not limited to believers only, do you accept universalism and believe everyone, even the devil and his demons, will ultimately be saved?

    4. Irresistible Grace. (Terrible word choice that only causes confusion.) Better called "Efficacious Grace." What part of God's grace do you think is so weak and defective that it will fail to achieve what God intended it to achieve?

    5. Perseverance of the saints. (Better called "preservation of the saints.) A person is saved by grace, and kept by grace. So, what, in your opinion, will result of the genuinely saved person losing his salvation?
     
    #92 TCassidy, Jul 11, 2017
  13. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    That is an arrogant statement. Since when are the two things mutually exclusive? Do honestly think that a label means a person does not want to follow scripture?


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    #93 Reformed, Jul 11, 2017
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  14. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    #94 SheepWhisperer, Jul 11, 2017
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  15. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    It is Gods will that only the elect are saved, but the invitation is to all men or just to the elect????
     
    #95 Reynolds, Jul 11, 2017
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  16. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    That is a very good question.

    We know that the Gospel is not proclaimed to all people, everywhere. There are tribal people who live and die without ever hearing the Gospel. That is problematic for those that believe God is universally fair. Some have gone so far to say that God will save those people based on how they live according to the light they have. If that is true then God is made a liar because the preaching of the Gospel is made obsolete. So, we cannot use the fairness argument when talking about salvation.

    I believe the preponderance of scripture teaches that the gospel is freely proclaimed, but not everyone is able to respond in a positive manner towards it. No one is able to believe unless God makes them able to believe (c.f. Eph. 2:1; 5). This is a hard truth for a Synergist to accept.


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    #96 Reformed, Jul 11, 2017
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  17. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    Romans 1:20 says
    For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    I don't know how all of that works but the Bible says it: it's pretty plain that God is "universally fair"
     
    #97 SheepWhisperer, Jul 11, 2017
  18. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Just because a tribal person stands on a mountain top and credits a higher power with creating all that he sees is not sufficient enough to save. If it was, than why preach Christ? 1 Corinthians 1:21 states plainly that "the message preached" (the Gospel) is the means of salvation, not natural revelation.

     
    #98 Reformed, Jul 11, 2017
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  19. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    It is clear you do not have a good grasp of Calvinism because your statements agree with all the points of Calvinism. Why is this so? Because the doctrines of grace are biblical. Thank you for agreeing to scripture as Calvinists agree.

    Why then such hostility to Calvinism when you clearly affirm its biblical teaching?
     
    #99 MennoSota, Jul 11, 2017
  20. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    Sir, I never said that it was. But I still stand by what I posted.
     
    #100 SheepWhisperer, Jul 11, 2017
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