Did Christ Die For The Sin Of Unbelief?

[1689Dave]

I do not believe God arbitrarily saves. I do see an issue with divorcing salvation from justification, though. I am not sure we can speak of God justifying somebody and then saving them (or vice versa). I understand "logical order", but too often it is logical only depending on the conversation.

In other words, no man is saved without being justified and no man is justified without being saved.

He is no respecter of persons. What good can a totally depraved, spiritually dead human do? Did he see you as a cut above the rest? And saved you for your goodness? Isn't that robbing God of his glory and giving yourself a portion? Yikes, brother...

 

[JonC]

He is no respecter of persons. What good can a totally depraved, spiritually dead human do? Did he see you as a cut above the rest? And saved you for your goodness? Isn't that robbing God of his glory and giving yourself a portion? Yikes, brother...

God is no respect or of persons, I agree. Man can do nothing to earn salvation. I do not see myself as a cut above the rest. Were I to give myself a portion of God's graces then it would be robbery - except I cannot.

I do not really understand the "Yikes, brother" part.

You are asking questions of me completely unrelated to what I believe or have posted.

Did you reply to the wrong person?

 

[utilyan]

God would be unjust if he saved anyone without first justifying them from their sins.

The minute God intervenes in anyway he is saving a person. The western pagan idea of retributive Justice is not like the Jewish restorative version of Justice.


1 timothy 1

12I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service, 13even though I was previously a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; 14and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. 15It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost. 16Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost sinner Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.


The moment someone hears the gospel from you God is saving them.

 

[1689Dave]

God is no respect or of persons, I agree. Man can do nothing to earn salvation. I do not see myself as a cut above the rest. Were I to give myself a portion of God's graces then it would be robbery - except I cannot.

I do not really understand the "Yikes, brother" part.

You are asking questions of me completely unrelated to what I believe or have posted.

Did you reply to the wrong person?

If you stick to the subject, it will make perfect sense. If not by arbitrary selection, He is a respecter of persons.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 7 pm EST / 4 pm PST

 

[DaveXR650]

He is no respecter of persons. What good can a totally depraved, spiritually dead human do? Did he see you as a cut above the rest? And saved you for your goodness? Isn't that robbing God of his glory and giving yourself a portion? Yikes, brother...

I do know people who believe they decided to turn to Christ because they were smart enough to see the advantages. I also know Calvinists who seem to somehow be proud of their election. That's people. But even in an honest effort to give God all the glory you can go beyond the truth of the matter. The high Calvinists like Owen appealed to men's reason in sermons and told them to strive with all their might for salvation. They told them they had to believe with no worries of usurping God's glory.

 

[DaveXR650]

God would be unjust if he saved anyone without first justifying them from their sins. He justified an arbitrarily selected group called the elect to glorify his mercy.

I do not believe God arbitrarily saves. I do see an issue with divorcing salvation from justification, though.

That's why I don't like the TULIP acronym. It's easy to take unconditional and make it arbitrary which we don't know. It was according to God's wisdom. Also, there is no salvation without justification.

 

[1689Dave]

I do know people who believe they decided to turn to Christ because they were smart enough to see the advantages. I also know Calvinists who seem to somehow be proud of their election. That's people. But even in an honest effort to give God all the glory you can go beyond the truth of the matter. The high Calvinists like Owen appealed to men's reason in sermons and told them to strive with all their might for salvation. They told them they had to believe with no worries of usurping God's glory.

TV preachers see lots of greedy converts. Is that how God saves people? How can anyone choose to be saved and not think they are saving themselves?

 

[1689Dave]

That's why I don't like the TULIP acronym. It's easy to take unconditional and make it arbitrary which we don't know. It was according to God's wisdom. Also, there is no salvation without justification.

It is arbitrary. God, not you, gets the glory.

 

[1689Dave]

The minute God intervenes in anyway he is saving a person. The western pagan idea of retributive Justice is not like the Jewish restorative version of Justice.


1 timothy 1

12I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service, 13even though I was previously a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; 14and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. 15It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost. 16Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost sinner Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.


The moment someone hears the gospel from you God is saving them.

Most reject the gospel. And many only hear what they want to hear.

 

[JonC]

If you stick to the subject, it will make perfect sense. If not by arbitrary selection, He is a respecter of persons.

He is a respected of persons when that Person is Christ.

 

[DaveXR650]

But indeed Christ has no such power, no such ability: he cannot save unbelieving, impenitent sinners; for this cannot be done without denying himself, acting contrary to his word, and destroying his own glory. Let none please themselves with such vain imaginations. Christ is able to save all them, who come to God by him. Whilst you live in sin and unbelief, Christ himself cannot save you...."

TV preachers see lots of greedy converts. Is that how God saves people? How can anyone choose to be saved and not think they are saving themselves?

Dave, the above is a quote from John Owen. Are you OK with the way he said that?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Christs death is mainly for Salvation. If thats not His main objective by His death, then nothing is. As far as the permanently lost are concerned, Christ death wasn't for them any way. So again, If Christ died for an individual, and they are lost forever because of unbelief and any other sin, Christs death was ineffective.

A good verse to preach on at Christmas is Matthew 1:21. '.......And you shall call His name JESUS, for He shall save His people from their sins.'
Saviour is what He is, and saving is what He does. There have been worldly kings who have been given titles: Alfred the Great, William the Conqueror, Richard the Lionheart, Charles the Bold of France, Suleiman the Magnificent of the Turks; not to mention Ivan the Terrible and Vlad the Impaler! But our King has the greatest name of all; He is Jesus, the Saviour.

 

[JonC]

A good verse to preach on at Christmas is Matthew 1:21. '.......And you shall call His name JESUS, for He shall save His people from their sins.'

A good verse to preach anytime.

 

[1689Dave]

He is a respected of persons when that Person is Christ.

God is not a respecter of persons. It sounds as though you think God foresees the self-righteous. And selects them on that basis. But there are none righteous, not one.

 

[JonC]

It sounds as though you think God foresees the self-righteous. And selects them on that basis.

Uh....how did you get that idea?

 

[1689Dave]

Dave, the above is a quote from John Owen. Are you OK with the way he said that?

I'm not OK with your position.

 

[1689Dave]

Uh....how did you get that idea?

If he is not a respecter of persons, how does he not arbitrarily choose whom he will save?

 

[JonC]

If he is not a respecter of persons, how does he not arbitrarily choose whom he will save?

Romans 9:18 So then, He shows mercy to those He wants to, and He hardens those He wants to harden.

Romans 9:20–21 But who are you, a mere man, to talk back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, “Why did you make me like this?” Or has the potter no right over the clay, to make from the same lump one piece of pottery for honor and another for dishonor?

God is not arbitrary. God works His will and everything unfolds according to His plan.

We may not know or understand why, but it is not arbitrary or happenstance. It is according to God's predetermined plan.

 

[1689Dave]

Romans 9:18 So then, He shows mercy to those He wants to, and He hardens those He wants to harden.

Romans 9:20–21 But who are you, a mere man, to talk back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, “Why did you make me like this?” Or has the potter no right over the clay, to make from the same lump one piece of pottery for honor and another for dishonor?

God is not arbitrary. God works His will and everything unfolds according to His plan.

We may not know or understand why, but it is not arbitrary or happenstance. It is according to God's predetermined plan.

ar·bi·trar·y

adjective

1. based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.
   "his mealtimes were entirely arbitrary"

““And all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, ‘What hast Thou done?’” Daniel 4:35 (NASB)