Did Christ Die For The Sin Of Unbelief?

[DaveXR650]

That is, either Christ did not die for their unbelief because they would not believe, or else he did die for their unbelief but conditionally, and that condition was that they were believers... John Owen... The Death Of Death In The Death Of Christ... 1647

I wish the OP would give the reference as to exactly where that is in Owen's work. (I know it's there but I just can't find it and anyone who's tried to read that will understand). The reason I ask is that I wonder if he is refuting the idea that God operates conditionally in salvation in that Jesus has died and now waits to see who will meet the necessary "condition", which is that they believe. I know that Owen was not arguing that someone will be saved that does not believe, but I also know that he did not think God has to sit back and wait for people to meet certain conditions in order for them to be saved.

 

[37818]

. . . the idea God punished Jesus for our sins instead of punishing us for those sins. . . .

It ended as noted in John 19:28. And in John 19:30 Jesus physically died for His burial and the resurrection. Per Isaiah 53:9, ". . . he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; . . ." Hebrew deaths.

 

[JonC]

It ended as noted in John 19:28. And in John 19:30 Jesus physically died for His burial and the resurrection. Per Isaiah 53:9, ". . . he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; . . ." Hebrew deaths.

He died once for all. One death. What you point out in the Hebrew is an intensive plural.

 

[tyndale1946]

I wish the OP would give the reference as to exactly where that is in Owen's work. (I know it's there but I just can't find it and anyone who's tried to read that will understand). The reason I ask is that I wonder if he is refuting the idea that God operates conditionally in salvation in that Jesus has died and now waits to see who will meet the necessary "condition", which is that they believe. I know that Owen was not arguing that someone will be saved that does not believe, but I also know that he did not think God has to sit back and wait for people to meet certain conditions in order for them to be saved.

I guess I should have done that... From Arguments Against Universal Redemption... Chapter 3, Page 90 or my PFD gives me page 101... Under the heading Thirdly... If Christ died for all, the sin of unbelief was paid for... Brother Glen

 

[37818]

He died once for all. One death. What you point out in the Hebrew is an intensive plural.

What was finished at John 19:28 that Jesus said was finished John 19:30 before He phyically died and was no longer being foresaken by His Father?

John 19:28, ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." The very same word and grammar translated as "It is finished."

 

[JonC]

What was finised at John 19:28 that Jesus said was finished John 19:30 before He phyically died and was no longer being foresaken by His Father?

John 19:28, ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." The very same word and grammar translated as "It is finished."

Yes. God forsake Christ to suffer and die on the Cross. When He cried "it is finished" it was finished. His suffering ended, He died, and was vindicated as He rose from the grave.

 

[37818]

Yes. God forsake Christ to suffer and die on the Cross. When He cried "it is finished" it was finished. His suffering ended, He died, and was vindicated as He rose from the grave.

It ended before John 19:28. Did you not understand that?
τετελεσται treanslated as "accomplished"
John 19;30, τετελεσται translated as "It is finished"
That word in that grammar is only used twice in the whole NT.

 

[JonC]

It ended before John 19:28. Did you not understand that?
τετελεσται treanslated as "accomplished"
John 19;30, τετελεσται translated as "It is finished"
That word in that grammar is only used twice in the whole NT.

Yes, I do understand that. Christ accomplished His earthly mission, His suffering had ended.

 

[utilyan]

1 John 5

9If we receive the testimony of people, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.


Reading the above it state what is the testimony. It states there are those who believe the testimony and those who don't.

Those who believe in the son of God believe the testimony. Those who don't make God a liar, "the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son."

What is the Testimony? what is the person not believing? What are they saying God is a liar about?

Its right there in verse 11: 11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

So the one's who DO believe believe God has given them eternal life and that life is in his son.

The one's who DO NOT BELIEVE believe God has NOT given them eternal life and that life is NOT in his son.

If we were to follow the Logic that Jesus DID NOT DIE for the unbeliever.

Than the unbeliever IS NOT MAKING GOD A LIAR, the unbeliever is telling the "TRUTH" The "truth" being God has not given me eternal life and that life is not in his son.

The actual TRUTH is God has given them eternal life and that life is in his son. Because they do not believe this TRUTH they make God a liar.

 

[37818]

Yes, I do understand that. Christ accomplished His earthly mission, His suffering had ended.

Before John 19:28 regarding 1 Peter 3:18 and Psalms 22:1? Jesus was yet to die phyically, John 19:30.

 

[JonC]

Before John 19:28 regarding 1 Peter 3:18 and Psalms 22:1? Jesus was yet to die phyically, John 19:30.

I have no issues with those passages. I think you may be a bit too focused on a timeline (looking at Scripture as if it was written to modern news criteria). But I am not sure what point you are making.

My point is simply that the idea God was punishing Christ is anti-biblical and misses the point of Christ's work.

 

[37818]

I have no issues with those passages. I think you may be a bit too focused on a timeline (looking at Scripture as if it was written to modern news criteria). But I am not sure what point you are making.

My point is simply that the idea God was punishing Christ is anti-biblical and misses the point of Christ's work.

It is very simple. There is what was finished before John 19:28. what was it? I am of the persuation it was the atonement. The physical death was in John 19:30.

 

[37818]

As to the question of this thread, Jesus answered it in Luke 22:20, ". . . This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. . . ," "You" inclueded the unbelieving Judas.

 

[JonC]

It is very simple. There is what was finished before John 19:28. what was it? I am of the persuation it was the atonement. The physical death was in John 19:30.

I understand now what you are saying, but I disagree. Christ had accomplished His earthly ministry. I think you may be reading into the passage.

We tend to look for a moment when "the atonement" happened. For us, we are not "at one" with God until we believe. Christ's earthly ministry was accomplished and His suffering ended in John 19:30. Christ died once for all. BUT the Atonement includes Christ's birth, ministry, death, and resurrection. This is for mankind. Our atonement occurs when we die to the flesh and are made alive in Him.

 

[JonC]

As to the question of this thread, Jesus answered it in Luke 22:20, ". . . This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. . . ," "You" inclueded the unbelieving Judas.

Yes. Christ is the Propitiation for the whole world.

 

[DaveXR650]

I guess I should have done that... From Arguments Against Universal Redemption... Chapter 3, Page 90 or my PFD gives me page 101... Under the heading Thirdly... If Christ died for all, the sin of unbelief was paid for... Brother Glen

Thank you sir. It's location 104900 if you use a Kindle.
If you are willing to go with Owen in the sense that the atonement encompasses the actual shedding of blood and the forgiveness of sins in that one act at that single point in time I don't see how you can argue with Owen. But I also know that for a lot of Calvinists even, no one's sins including unbelief are forgiven until they come to Christ. So the answer is that the sin of unbelief is not forgiven for the elect even - until they believe. But what you have to realize is that for the classic Calvinist like Owen you cannot separate out various aspects of our salvation like we do with our modern minds. So Owen would not have worried that the atonement was in God's mind from eternity past and that it happened at a specific day around 2000 years ago. But while he was sure of the total atonement for the elect - he was just as sure of their being given the new birth, faith, repentance and all the graces at the appropriate time. So I think he was trying to point out the absurdity of taking one part of our salvation and then starting the "well what if" this or that situation.

 

[37818]

I understand now what you are saying, but I disagree. Christ had accomplished His earthly ministry. I think you may be reading into the passage.

τετελεσται Paid in full. Once not twice. What was paid in full was done before ". . .Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished . . . ." Paid in full. His physical death came afterwards.

 

[JonC]

τετελεσται Paid in full. Once not twice. What was paid in full was done before ". . .Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished . . . ." Paid in full. His physical death came afterwards.

Where did you get the idea that τετελεσται means "paid in full"?

The passage literally means it was accomplished or performed. I think ypu may be reading into the passage.

That said, it has no bearing on the fact that the idea God punished Christ instead of punishing us is extra-biblical. I'm not sure how where we are in this discussion.

 

[AustinC]

According to the last supper, Jesus is the Passover Lamb who was slain to save His people via covenant between God and man. Those with whom God has made covenant are saved. Those who are not in covenant are damned in their sin.

 

[Brightfame52]

Unbelief is no more than an iniquity, and Christs death for one redeems an effects from all iniquity Titus 2:14

14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

If one Christ died for dies in unbelief, then it rendered His Death ineffective.33