Did Christ Die For The Sin Of Unbelief?

[Brightfame52]

Not only did Christ merely die for unbelief, but He died for all the sins of them He died for. All their iniquities were laid on Him and met on Him Isa 53:6

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

That word iniquity also means He being punished for the iniquity that was caused to meet on Him. All of their moral evil and perversions were laid on Him, to mention their depravity, their actual sins and inherent filth and evil thoughts. Remember David prayed Ps 19:12

12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.

These secret faults were laid on Christ, and His Blood cleanses from all sin !

 

[JonC]

People who die in sin do so precisely because Christ Jesus left them in their sins and did not pay their debt.

What Scripture would you use to back this up?

 

[AustinC]

What Scripture would you use to back this up?

Matthew 25:31-34,41,46

“But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left.

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world.

“Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”

Jon, if Jesus paid the debt of the goats, why are they cast into eternal punishment?

 

[JonC]

Jon, if Jesus paid the debt of the goats, why are they cast into eternal punishment?

I do not view the question as valid (as addressed to me) because I do not believe the "sin debt" idea of forgiveness (I do not believe that the Theory of Penal Substitution is correct).

I was just asking for a biblical reference, specifically for a verse or passage about a sin debt being paid for all or some.

Sometimes it helps to reexamine our understanding and I was just wondering which passages you would use to support the idea.

And thank you for the response. I disagree it supports your position, but I appreciate the reference.

 

[Brightfame52]

Paul is an example of how Jesus Christ saves those He died for from unbelief. He testified to that fact here 1 Tim 1:12-15

12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.30

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

All Paul did in persecuting the Church, the People of God was grounded in unbelief. However Jesus converted Paul from his unbelief when He renewed him on the road to damascus, Acts 9:1-6

And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

And so when Paul recalls this amazing show of mercy and grace towards him, even in the height of his unbelief, he cannot help but to testify:


"15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."

See to save a sinner is nothing less than saving an unbeliever. Jesus saves them by giving them His Grace and Faith, and hence they believe through Grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

To say that Jesus wont save a person because they wont believe is far from the truth !

 

[37818]

I do not view the question as valid (as addressed to me) because I do not believe the "sin debt" idea of forgiveness (I do not believe that the Theory of Penal Substitution is correct).

Isaiah 53:6, ". . . the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. . . ."
1 Peter 3;18, ". . . For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, . . ."
1 John 2:2, ". . . he is the propitiation for our sins: . . ."

 

[JonC]

Isaiah 53:6, ". . . the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. . . ."
1 Peter 3;18, ". . . For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, . . ."
1 John 2:2, ". . . he is the propitiation for our sins: . . ."

I agree with these verses.

 

[37818]

I agree with these verses.

Good.
Explain simply how those Scriptures are not penal substitution. 1 Peter 3:18 would be a good case.

 

[JonC]

Good.
Explain simply how those Scriptures are not penal substitution. 1 Peter 3:18 would be a good case.

They are penal substitution. The consequences of our sin is death. This is a penalty. Christ suffered once for our sins - the Just for the unjust. I would argue it is substitution more in the sence of representation, but He took upon Himself the sins of the World.

But they do not support the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement. No biblical reference presents God as punishing Christ instead of punishing us. In fact, that idea completely misses the necessity of the Cross.

 

[Dave G]

If Christ satisfied for all sin, the sin of unbelief was paid for.

Amen.

If Christ died in the stead of all men, and made satisfaction for their sins, then either he died for all of their sins, or only for some of their sins.

To me, that is the problem many have when they say that He gave Himself for all of us, instead of the "whosoever believeth"...
His actions on the cross are stated in the Scriptures to have accomplished a specific purpose for a specific set of reasons for a specific people.

If He did this for everyone, then they are indeed reconciled to God and no one is in Hell right now, and no one will be in the Lake of Fire;
Christ's work is a finished work for His people.

It really is that simple.

 

[Dave G]

If he died for only some, then who can be saved?

The ones that He died for ( Isaiah 53:8, Matthew 1:21, John 10:11, John 10:15 ).

If he died for all, then why are all not saved?

Because He didn't die for all men.

He died for the "world" spoken of in John 3:16...the "whosoever believeth" that should not perish ( John 6:37-40 ), which Romans 10:8-10 tells us are those who believe, from the heart,
Not those who just profess with the lips and in their hearts and minds are far from Him.

He did not die for the sins of those who will never come to love Him and who love this world and its ways ( 1 John 2:15 ).
He died for those He loved, and who would later come to believe on Him through His word.

 

[Dave G]

They say it is because of their unbelief; they will not believe, and therefore they are not saved.

Scripture tells us that belief follows God's actions upon a person ( Psalms 65:4, John 3:36, John 5:24, John 6:29-47, John 6:64-65, John 8:43-47, John 10:26-27, John 17:2, Acts of the Apostles 2:39, Acts of the Apostles 2:47, Acts of the Apostles 13:48, Acts of the Apostles 16:14, Ephesians 1:3-13, Ephesians 2:1-10, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 )...

Their belief of His words does not precede Him granting them the gift of the new birth and His forgiveness of their sins.
His decision to save came well before we were made aware of His grace towards us ( Ephesians 1:4-11 ).

Is unbelief a sin, or not?

Yes, it is.
See John 16:9.

If it is not, then how can it be a cause of damnation?

God's damnation of men not only rests upon His plan and purposes, but the fact that all have sinned ( Romans 3:10-18, Romans 3:23, Ecclesiastes 7:20, etc ).
He decided who to save, He does not leave that up to us to decide...

For if left up to us, none would repent...
nor would we follow Him and seek Him consistently, nor would we do so in honesty and true humility.

If it is, then Christ died for it, or he did not.

He died for the sins of His people, which includes their sin of unbelief.

If he did, then why is this an obstacle to their salvation?

It isn't an obstacle to the salvation of men.
God's purposes according to election will stand, just as Scripture tells us.

 

[Dave G]

Is there any new slant to this? Is this not the same old condition, that they are not saved because they do not believe?

It's not that they are not saved because they do not believe...
It's that they do not believe because they are not His sheep ( John 10:26 ), and that they are already condemned ( John 3:18 ).

The evidence of His condemnation is their unbelief.

That is, either Christ did not die for their unbelief because they would not believe, or else he did die for their unbelief but conditionally, and that condition was that they were believers... John Owen... The Death Of Death In The Death Of Christ... 1647

Again, the Lord Jesus died for the sins of His people, which included their unbelief.
He did not die for the sins of those who were not given to Him by His Father.

If someone truly believes on Christ, they do so from a changed heart...
and their belief is a result of His work in them as the objects of His grace and mercy.
The "condition" imposed by some as one of belief or unbelief of the Gospel ( which then leads to condemnation or salvation ), is one which the Scriptures do not teach.
Rather, the evidence of salvation is one's belief of the Gospel and one's growing in grace and the knowledge of God and His ways.

Faith is the evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ), not the prerequisite.
Belief is a sin, but did not and does not hinder God from saving someone, eternally.


In other words, He doesn't need our permission to save or to damn, as we are all worthy of everlasting punishment.
He is the Lord, and He does as He wishes with sinful and rebellious people.

 

[Dave G]

@tyndale1946 :

Simply put, God's forgiveness of a person rests upon His mercy and compassion, not their belief of His words.

Their sin of unbelief was taken care of at the cross, just as all of their sins were ( Colossians 2:13-14 ).
Their reconciliation to Him was by the death of His Son ( Romans 5:1-11 ) and their being justified by His blood....
Not because of their belief of these things.

God acted upon a "dead" people, and raised them from that spiritual death.
Their unbelief never stood in His way of His saving them as a people for Himself.

Because of that, we owe Him everything...
for without ( outside of ) Him, we can do nothing.


May God bless you.

 

[Two Wings]

If Christ satisfied for all sin, the sin of unbelief was paid for. If Christ died in the stead of all men, and made satisfaction for their sins, then either he died for all of their sins, or only for some of their sins. If he died for only some, then who can be saved? If he died for all, then why are all not saved? They say it is because of their unbelief; they will not believe, and therefore they are not saved. Is unbelief a sin, or not? If it is not, then how can it be a cause of damnation? If it is, then Christ died for it, or he did not. If he did not, then he did not die for all the sins of all men. If he did, then why is this an obstacle to their salvation? Is there any new slant to this? Is this not the same old condition, that they are not saved because they do not believe? That is, either Christ did not die for their unbelief because they would not believe, or else he did die for their unbelief but conditionally, and that condition was that they were believers... John Owen... The Death Of Death In The Death Of Christ... 1647

Brother Glen

https://www.apuritansmind.com/wp-co...heDeathofDeathintheDeathofChrist-JohnOwen.pdf

romans 6:23

free gift. (and I've been intrigued by this adjective. Isn't a gift free?)

can one have a gift without receiving it? If the gift is rejected, can it be received?

 

[AustinC]

@tyndale1946 :

Simply put, God's forgiveness of a person rests upon His mercy and compassion, not their belief of His words.

Their sin of unbelief was taken care of at the cross, just as all of their sins were ( Colossians 2:13-14 ).
Their reconciliation to Him was by the death of His Son ( Romans 5:1-11 ) and their being justified by His blood....
Not because of their belief of these things.

God acted upon a "dead" people, and raised them from that spiritual death.
Their unbelief never stood in His way of His saving them as a people for Himself.

Because of that, we owe Him everything...
for without ( outside of ) Him, we can do nothing.


May God bless you.

The bold seems to be emphasized by Hebrews 6 where we see that repentance does not automatically equal mercy being given.

Hebrews 6:4-8
For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come— and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame. When the ground soaks up the falling rain and bears a good crop for the farmer, it has God’s blessing. But if a field bears thorns and thistles, it is useless. The farmer will soon condemn that field and burn it.

 

[37818]

But they do not support the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement. No biblical reference presents God as punishing Christ instead of punishing us. In fact, that idea completely misses the necessity of the Cross.

I am not understanding the difference you are arguing.

Ezekiel 18:4, ". . . the soul that sinneth, it shall die. . . ."
Mark 9:47-48, ". . . into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
Psalms 22:1, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? . . . ."
Psalms 22:6, ". . . I am a worm, . . . ."
Isaiah 53:12, . . . hath poured out his soul unto death: . . ."

 

[JonC]

I am not understanding the difference you are arguing.

Ezekiel 18:4, ". . . the soul that sinneth, it shall die. . . ."
Mark 9:47-48, ". . . into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
Psalms 22:1, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? . . . ."
Psalms 22:6, ". . . I am a worm, . . . ."
Isaiah 53:12, . . . hath poured out his soul unto death: . . ."

I'm not really arguing a difference. I am saying that there are penal and substitution-representation aspects to the work of Christ.

Christ "emptied" Himself, shared in our sufferings (our temptations), He became sin for us, bore our sins. Our iniquities fell on Him. God was pleased to crush Him, to offer Him as a sin offering. And by His stripes we are healed.

All of this is biblical.

What is not in the Bible is the idea I often find couched in Penal Substitution, that is the idea God punished Jesus for our sins instead of punishing us for those sins. Other aspects often found in Penal Substitution are also unbiblical - like God having to punishing sin in order to, or as a means of, forgiveness (his is actually anti-biblical), or that sins can be transfered to another person.

 

[AustinC]

I'm not really arguing a difference. I am saying that there are penal and substitution-representation aspects to the work of Christ.

Christ "emptied" Himself, shared in our sufferings (our temptations), He became sin for us, bore our sins. Our iniquities fell on Him. God was pleased to crush Him, to offer Him as a sin offering. And by His stripes we are healed.

All of this is biblical.

What is not in the Bible is the idea I often find couched in Penal Substitution, that is the idea God punished Jesus for our sins instead of punishing us for those sins. Other aspects often found in Penal Substitution are also unbiblical - like God having to punishing sin in order to, or as a means of, forgiveness (his is actually anti-biblical), or that sins can be transfered to another person.

Jon, do you agree that the establishment of a covenant requires the shedding of blood? Would you agree that the new covenant is established in the blood of Christ as the Lamb that was slain?

 

[JonC]

Jon, do you agree that the establishment of a covenant requires the shedding of blood? Would you agree that the new covenant is established in the blood of Christ as the Lamb that was slain?

Yes. But I believe the Old Covenant foreshadowed the New Covenant (the better Covenant that was to come). There is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood, which foreshadowed Christ dying for us that we may escape the wrath to come.

I believe this demonstrates the necessity of the Cross.