Did Christ Die For The Sin Of Unbelief?

[AustinC]

Well since that is what the bible say then that seems like a good idea don't you think.

Is that what the Bible says?

1689Dave said: ↑
The Arminian or Catholic would say Christ died for all sin but the sinner must do their part and apply it through obedience. As though the gospel is law and obedience is the way to keep it.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
~ Ephesians 2:4-9

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
~ Romans 5:6-10

 

[Silverhair]

Is that what the Bible says?


But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
~ Ephesians 2:4-9

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
~ Romans 5:6-10

Well I would expect you to disagree since you think you are saved before you believe but the bible says differently.

Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

But I expect that you will find fault with these texts as is your usual why. I keep telling you that context will help you understand but you still avoid it.

 

[AustinC]

Well I would expect you to disagree since you think you are saved before you believe but the bible says differently.

Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

But I expect that you will find fault with these texts as is your usual why. I keep telling you that context will help you understand but you still avoid it.

No fault with the text. They support salvation by grace alone. I am not sure why you disagree when scripture you quote says that a person is saved by grace alone.

But how can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them? And how will anyone go and tell them without being sent? That is why the Scriptures say, “How beautiful are the feet of messengers who bring good news!” But not everyone welcomes the Good News, for Isaiah the prophet said, “Lord, who has believed our message?” So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ.
~ Romans 10:14-17

 

[Silverhair]

No fault with the text. They support salvation by grace alone. I am not sure why you disagree when scripture you quote says that a person is saved by grace alone.

But how can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them? And how will anyone go and tell them without being sent? That is why the Scriptures say, “How beautiful are the feet of messengers who bring good news!” But not everyone welcomes the Good News, for Isaiah the prophet said, “Lord, who has believed our message?” So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ.
~ Romans 10:14-17

Austin you have to learn how to read. I do not disagree with salvation by Gods' grace alone. We cannot save ourselves. Where you fail is that you think you are saved before you have faith in Christ Jesus. Sorry that is not what the bible says as the texts I quoted points out and which you agreed with. Actually the text that you quoted makes that point. I put the revelant text in red so you will be sure to see it. There it is for you Austin they have to hear the gospel message and believe the gospel message and then God will save them by His grace. Just like the bible tells us Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith;. Don't you love how the bible is so clear about the way of salvation?

 

[AustinC]

Austin you have to learn how to read. I do not disagree with salvation by Gods' grace alone. We cannot save ourselves. Where you fail is that you think you are saved before you have faith in Christ Jesus. Sorry that is not what the bible says as the texts I quoted points out and which you agreed with. Actually the text that you quoted makes that point. I put the revelant text in red so you will be sure to see it. There it is for you Austin they have to hear the gospel message and believe the gospel message and then God will save them by His grace. Just like the bible tells us Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith;. Don't you love how the bible is so clear about the way of salvation?

May I ask which scripture shares that a person has faith while they are dead in their trespasses and sins?
Also, where does it say that people who are dead in sins exercise their own faith so that their faith saves them?
Romans 10:17
So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ.

John 10:3-4
The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep recognize his voice and come to him. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. After he has gathered his own flock, he walks ahead of them, and they follow him because they know his voice.

Romans 8:29-30
For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.

Romans 5:6,8-9
When we were utterly helpless, Christ came at just the right time and died for us sinners.
But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners. And since we have been made right in God’s sight by the blood of Christ, he will certainly save us from God’s condemnation.

Ephesians 2:4-5
But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!)

I understand you may reject all these passages in the Bible as they show that faith is not found in the carnal sinner who is dead and needs God to make them alive.

I will wait for those verses that explicitly tell me that the God-hater has faith within himself that moves him to believe and then causes God to save him.

 

[Silverhair]

May I ask which scripture shares that a person has faith while they are dead in their trespasses and sins?
Also, where does it say that people who are dead in sins exercise their own faith so that their faith saves them?
Romans 10:17
So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ.

John 10:3-4
The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep recognize his voice and come to him. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. After he has gathered his own flock, he walks ahead of them, and they follow him because they know his voice.

Romans 8:29-30
For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.

Romans 5:6,8-9
When we were utterly helpless, Christ came at just the right time and died for us sinners.
But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners. And since we have been made right in God’s sight by the blood of Christ, he will certainly save us from God’s condemnation.

Ephesians 2:4-5
But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!)

I understand you may reject all these passages in the Bible as they show that faith is not found in the carnal sinner who is dead and needs God to make them alive.

I will wait for those verses that explicitly tell me that the God-hater has faith within himself that moves him to believe and then causes God to save him.

Austin you are just a silly silly man. You think that because someone does not ascribe to your failed view then they do not know or accept the text of scripture. Please give your head a shake. I follow the bible, the whole bible, not just some of the texts that I think will support my view, which is what you seem to do. I do not have to change the meaning of words or leave words out. Many many times I have told you context matters but you still have failed to grasp that concept.

Perhaps at sometime in the future the light will shine into your life.

 

[Brightfame52]

Did Christ die for the sin of unbelief ?

Now unbelief and disobedience are relatively the same thing. Unbelief is called not obeying here 2 Thess 1:8

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Now to obey not is disobedience

Jn 3:36

He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him.

Believes not here in the greek is the word ἀπειθέω:

I disobey, rebel, am disloyal, refuse conformity

Now disobedience is the parent sin in adam Rom 5:19 which began with eve not believing God because of the serpents seduction, hence she believed his [the serpents lie] over Gods Truth. Recall what God had said what would happen if they ate of that particular tree, that "ye shall surely die Gen 2:16-17 and the serpent said to her the opposite to Gods Truth Gen 3:1-6.

This is the beginning of the parent sin of unbelief/disobedience which all by nature are imprisoned to Rom 11:31-32

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.


32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

So now to say Christ didnt die for unbelief, is to deny Christ died for mans sin in adam, which contradicts scripture truth Rom 5:15-16

15 But not as the offence [unbelief/disobedience], so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned[disobedience/unbelief], so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Christ took away the sin of the world Jn 1:29, but if they who He died for are condemned for unbelief, Jn 1:29 is a lie !

 

[Brightfame52]

If you mean the way Owen puts it then no but that is not what I said is it?

While refusal to believe is indeed a sin, the reason it keeps one from salvation is not due to it being a sin, but because unbelief, by definition, precludes belief in Christ, without which no one can be saved (Heb_11:6). As with all sins Christ died for, forgiveness for unbelief is only obtained through subsequent belief in Him. Post # 5

Unbelief is the one sin that cannot be atoned for at the cross as it is the unforgivable sin. If a person does not believe then they cannot be saved. Would you not agree with that? Post # 10

If unbelief were covered, along with all the other sins, then that would rule out the requirement for forgiveness as their sins would all be covered. If faith/belief in Christ Jesus is the one requirement that God has placed on our salvation and if unbelief was dealt with at the cross via the atonement then that would remove the requirement for belief. Post # 13

Owen was arguing for a position that belief is not required for salvation as it, as a sin, was covered by the atonement. By his argument he is saying that the "elect of the world" would not have any sins to answer for as they were all dealt with at the cross and thus would not need to believe to be saved.

I do find it odd that Owen would think that Christ Jesus was able to atone for all the sins of some men, the elect, but was unable to atone for all the sins of all men. Were the elect somehow different from the rest of mankind?

In answer to your question, yes unbelief is a sin but it is the condition that is required for the forgiveness of our sins. Post # 17

BF52 I think you have got to reread the posts before you make any further comments. You seem to be holding to what Owen put forward. But then you are determined to think that way. Owens' bad theology led him to some bad conclusions.

It appears you dont believe Christ died for the sin of unbelief. Thats a shame !

 

[AustinC]

Austin you are just a silly silly man. You think that because someone does not ascribe to your failed view then they do not know or accept the text of scripture. Please give your head a shake. I follow the bible, the whole bible, not just some of the texts that I think will support my view, which is what you seem to do. I do not have to change the meaning of words or leave words out. Many many times I have told you context matters but you still have failed to grasp that concept.

Perhaps at sometime in the future the light will shine into your life.

I will wait for those verses that explicitly tell me that the God-hater has faith within himself that moves him to believe and then causes God to save him as you so proclaim.

I shared many verses without commentary and you reject them. Don't tell us you follow the Bible when it is clear you follow your philosophy and fit verses out of context to try support it. The evidence is your quote of only one verse in Romans 10,while ignoring the rest, which defeats yoir assertion. The same is true of Ephesians 2 as you ignore the entire passage before verse 8, which clarifies how faith comes to be authored. I can point to you doing the same thing in Ephesians 1. Silverhair, you don't have even one passage that gives support to you. All you have is a verse in isolation that is ripped out of its context. You do it all the time. Yet, when I quote an entire passage, you claim it's out of context. Everyone can see your disingenuousness.

 

[Brightfame52]

Now the sinners Christ died for cannot be charged or have laid to their account unbelief/disobedience, and here's why ! Christ death was a covenantal death, according to the stipulations of the everlasting covenant Heb 13:20 which is also known in time as the New Covenant or Testament Matt 26:28. Now one of the promises of this death is this Heb 8:12

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. Well unbelief is a unrighteousness, so God has promised to be merciful to their unrighteousness/unbelief. Same as in Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

So for God to condemn any sinner Christ died for, for unbelief makes God a liar !

 

[Silverhair]

Now the sinners Christ died for cannot be charged or have laid to their account unbelief/disobedience, and here's why ! Christ death was a covenantal death, according to the stipulations of the everlasting covenant Heb 13:20 which is also known in time as the New Covenant or Testament Matt 26:28. Now one of the promises of this death is this Heb 8:12

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. Well unbelief is a unrighteousness, so God has promised to be merciful to their unrighteousness/unbelief. Same as in Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

So for God to condemn any sinner Christ died for, for unbelief makes God a liar !

You have made a massive miss application of the scriptures here. According to your logic the "elect" can sin all the wish as they will not be held to account for it as Christ Jesus paid for it at the cross >>Now the sinners Christ died for cannot be charged or have laid to their account unbelief/disobedience<<

The bible tells us that Christ Jesus died for the sins of the whole world so by your logic no one will be judged. 1Jn_2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

BF52 your theology needs a rethink.

 

[Brightfame52]

You have made a massive miss application of the scriptures here. According to your logic the "elect" can sin all the wish as they will not be held to account for it as Christ Jesus paid for it at the cross >>Now the sinners Christ died for cannot be charged or have laid to their account unbelief/disobedience<<

The bible tells us that Christ Jesus died for the sins of the whole world so by your logic no one will be judged. 1Jn_2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

BF52 your theology needs a rethink.

God is mercifiual to the unbelief of the elect, because Christ has taken it away.

 

[AustinC]

You have made a massive miss application of the scriptures here. According to your logic the "elect" can sin all the wish as they will not be held to account for it as Christ Jesus paid for it at the cross >>Now the sinners Christ died for cannot be charged or have laid to their account unbelief/disobedience<<

The bible tells us that Christ Jesus died for the sins of the whole world so by your logic no one will be judged. 1Jn_2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

BF52 your theology needs a rethink.

Be honest, Silverhair, that conclusion is according to your logic.

Scripture tell us who believe this truth:

For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.
~ Romans 3:23-26

Why do you think Jesus sacrificial death is effective for all sins...except the sin of unbelief? Is this a rogue sin that God is incapable of redeeming? If so, should you fail to believe at your final breath...will you die in your unredeemed sin and spend eternity in hell?

 

[Silverhair]

God is mercifiual to the unbelief of the elect, because Christ has taken it away.

So by your thinking Christ Jesus took away the unbelief so the question is why do they have to believe? They would just be saved no matter what. You have to rethink your theology.

 

[Silverhair]

Be honest, Silverhair, that conclusion is according to your logic.

Scripture tell us who believe this truth:

For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.
~ Romans 3:23-26

Why do you think Jesus sacrificial death is effective for all sins...except the sin of unbelief? Is this a rogue sin that God is incapable of redeeming? If so, should you fail to believe at your final breath...will you die in your unredeemed sin and spend eternity in hell?

Why do you think that unbelief would not cause you to be condemned?

 

[Brightfame52]

The elect of God, like all men are naturally born into this world in unbelief, for Paul writing of the elect from out of both the jews and gentiles writes Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Yet God had a merciful purpose for doing that to the elect, not to condemn them in that state, but the very opposite, to have mercy upon them for being in that state. Understand as well that the word unbelief here also is rendered and means disobedience. Its the greek word apeitheia. The word apeithēs means:

impersuasible, not compliant, disobedient, contumacious

obstinacy, obstinate opposition to the divine will, disbelief (obstinate and rebellious)

Its this state God imprisoned the elect in for the purpose of mercy !

 

[Brightfame52]

So by your thinking Christ Jesus took away the unbelief so the question is why do they have to believe? They would just be saved no matter what. You have to rethink your theology.

They are commanded to believe, it gives evidence that Christ saved them from their sins, their unbelief.

 

[AustinC]

Why do you think that unbelief would not cause you to be condemned?

Any sin condemns me. I stand before God completely condemned because I have broken God's law.
I am redeemed solely by the substitutionary atonement Christ Jesus made for me. All my sins and debt owed is paid in full by Christ Jesus. Even my daily unbelief where I doubt God.

I would not believe if God had not made me alive, graciously saved me, and enabled me by giving me faith to believe.

People who die in sin do so precisely because Christ Jesus left them in their sins and did not pay their debt. They had no faith.

 

[Brightfame52]

Now being in unbelief means a few things spiritually for all sinners naturally. Naturally the elect as well as the non elect are spiritually blind to the spiritual things of God Eph 4:18

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

2 Cor 4:4

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Secondly, the elect by nature in unbelief have hardness of heart towards God and spiritual matters. In fact the word blindness in Eph 4:18 is the grreek word pōrōsisand means:

stupidity or callousness:—blindness, hardness.

Paul writing of jews by nature writes Rom 2:5

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

However that doesnt just apply to the unregenerate jews, but to unregenerate gentiles as well, who are in unbelief.

And thirdly to be in unbelief is to be spiritually alienated from the life of God Eph 4:18

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Col 1:21

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

This is how God finds His elect for the purpose of mercy !

 

[Brightfame52]

The mercy that God had upon the elect is a mercy towards from everlasting unto everlasting Ps 103:17

17 But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

This constituted them the vessels of mercy Rom 9:23

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Now with this in mind, men and women who are condemned already which believe not Jn 3:18

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.20

These cannot be of the elect, the vessels of mercy, because they wont be condemned while in unbelief since God consigned the in unbelief for the purpose of having mercy upon them Rom 11:32.