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Did Christ died for all men or just some men?

Jarthur001

Active Member
webdog said:
Are only the nebulous "elect" weary and burdened? Does John 6:37 say "All that don't come to Me were never drawn and given by the Father, and I will cast them out"? Does John 6:44 say "Those who don't come to me were never drawn by the Father, and I will not raise them up on the last day"?

Is the converse of this statment true "Everyone named Nick Saban is a liar"? :D
NO...
But what it does say is....

All that come unto me...I will not cast out.
John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Those that come...Christ will lose none.
39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

And....No man comes....without being drawn
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.



65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Then you say this verse says...all of mankind is drawn.

12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.
12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?



No man can come unless the Father gives him to the Son.....
The Bible says..ALL men that have Heard come...
No man can COME unless the Father draws them...
You say..All mankind are drawn...
Christ loses no man that comes...
not one that comes will be cast out.....
All Men that come are given rest....
 
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psalms109:31

Active Member
Believers

Who has the Father given to the Son? It is simple, believers.

No one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them.

So we are the messenger of the Father no one will come unless we go out.

Jesus will not lose a believer, but if we disown Jesus He will disown us.

Being drawned does not mean you will be saved, you still have to accept Jesus and His word.
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
Hello psalms109:31,


Who has the Father given to the Son? It is simple, believers.
aaaaw ok...so believers can only come to Christ. humm. not sure about that one "109:31"
well...that is a new way to look at it. I think i'll stick with the elect come...and then believe after they come and are saved.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


So we are the messenger of the Father no one will come unless we go out.
i see so now its back to us..that must lift up Christ.
...so as you see it..if they hear they come and are saved. Does "all" mean "all"? Does "every man" mean "every man"? I guess so...

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


Jesus will not lose a believer, but if we disown Jesus He will disown us.
Well...at least you take freewill to the end. Most want to claim God has no control untill we are saved. In your case...God has no contorl at all, and will give people up if they want to go. I'll stick to my God..thanks

Being drawned does not mean you will be saved, you still have to accept Jesus and His word.
Nope drawn does not mean you are saved. Drawn means you go. You come to where you are drawn to come. In this case Christ is calling you to be saved. You are drawn to Christ by this calling. Christ says all that come He will save.

I think that about says it "all". :) In your view all are saved. Is not life grand?
 
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psalms109:31

Active Member
2 Peter 3:14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Ezekiel 3:18 When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for [a] his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself.
20 "Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 21 But if you do warn the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, he will surely live because he took warning, and you will have saved yourself."

James 5:19My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

James 3:1
Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

No the world can come to Jesus, but only believers will be saved.

We know the elect who will be saved is believer, whosoever believes shall be saved.

If you walk away from Jesus your only hope, you are condemned.
 

MB

Well-Known Member
Hi JArthur;
Drawn means you go. You come to where you are drawn to come. In this case Christ is calling you to be saved. You are drawn to Christ by this calling. Christ says all that come He will save.
Are you saying that once we are drawn that we can't help but come to Him?
MB
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Jarthur001 said:
NO...
But what it does say is....

All that come unto me...I will not cast out.


Those that come...Christ will lose none.


And....No man comes....without being drawn






Then you say this verse says...all of mankind is drawn.





No man can come unless the Father gives him to the Son.....
The Bible says..ALL men that have Heard come...
No man can COME unless the Father draws them...
You say..All mankind are drawn...
Christ loses no man that comes...
not one that comes will be cast out.....
All Men that come are given rest....
You have done nothing but show the bridges of human reasoning needed to make your doctrine work. And to think you believe my position is "man centered"...:rolleyes:
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
webdog said:
You have done nothing but show the bridges of human reasoning needed to make your doctrine work. And to think you believe my position is "man centered"...:rolleyes:

funny thing...

This was not my doctrine. I asked others views..and this is the answers given. :)
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
MB said:
Hi JArthur;

Are you saying that once we are drawn that we can't help but come to Him?
MB
hello MB,

What is the drawing factor that is talked about in this verse? I do not think its a drawing to play baseball. Nor is it a drawning to go out on a boat.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So based on this..I would say the Bible says we must come. :)

What do you think the drawing factor is?

Drawn to Christ...but why?

Drawn by God to what?
 

MB

Well-Known Member
Jarthur001 said:
hello MB,

What is the drawing factor that is talked about in this verse? I do not think its a drawing to play baseball. Nor is it a drawning to go out on a boat.



So based on this..I would say the Bible says we must come. :)
If this were true then wouldn't everyone be saved? Since everyone is drawn when they listen to the gospel?
Jarthur001 said:
What do you think the drawing factor is?
The promise of eternal life. Certainly most want to live. Those who want to live don't like the idea of death.
Jarthur001 said:
Drawn to Christ...but why?
Life
Jarthur001 said:
Drawn by God to what?
Promise of life eternal.
MB
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
Hello MB

Originally Posted by MB

Are you saying that once we are drawn that we can't help but come to Him?

James said...
What is the drawing factor that is talked about in this verse? I do not think its a drawing to play baseball. Nor is it a drawning to go out on a boat.

If this were true then wouldn't everyone be saved? Since everyone is drawn when they listen to the gospel?
Indeed. Thanks for seeing this. Others seem to overlook that fact.
If this is viewed as others say it is to be viewed..and If the drawing is to all men...then all will be saved.
and if Christ turns away no man.....and I agree Christ saves all that come to Him....then if you hold to this view..all will be saved.

But...all men are not saved...

Then this verse means something other then what some would have it mean...
" And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me. "
It has to..right?

1st let me say, I disagree with "psalms109:31" and others when they say "the lifting up" is believers sharing the gospel. Now... it maybe a play or words, where we can use it as a picture ...but this would be out of context. The text tells us that this is speaking of the type of death Christ would have and He being exalted unto heaven after the death.

He died not say "when I die."..for all men die. He was saying..when I die, this death means more then any other death. The lifting up is the victory we have over our sins and someday the victory over death. What happens after Christ death on the cross makes the last point come about. We do not see men running to Christ today. We never have seen this. This is not the meaning of the text. As you have stated…if this were the case…all men would believe.

What it is saying is…If I die on the cross…this makes it SURE that this other event will happen. In other words...The light is with you for a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, so that the darkness may not overtake you. The one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going. While you have the light, believe in the light, so that you may become sons of light.”......and then...it happens.

Now what is the other event?

I asked..
What do you think the drawing factor is?

You said..
The promise of eternal life. Certainly most want to live. Those who want to live don't like the idea of death.
People want to be saved from hell. People do not want to go to hell, but they do not want to be saved from sin and the sin places them in hell. Man is the sinner. We must be saved from our will to sin.


In Christ...James
 

MB

Well-Known Member
Jarthur001 said:
Hello MB


Indeed. Thanks for seeing this. Others seem to overlook that fact.
If this is viewed as others say it is to be viewed..and If the drawing is to all men...then all will be saved.
and if Christ turns away no man.....and I agree Christ saves all that come to Him....then if you hold to this view..all will be saved.

But...all men are not saved...

Then this verse means something other then what some would have it mean...

It has to..right?
Not according to scripture Act 26:28. Agrippa was drawn to Paul's preaching and was almost persuaded. He couldn't have almost been convinced if he didn't hear what Paul said and likewise he wouldn't have almost been persuaded with out this drawing. For someone to even listen to the preaching of the word, they must be drawn.
Jarthur001 said:
1st let me say, I disagree with "psalms109:31" and others when they say "the lifting up" is believers sharing the gospel. Now... it maybe a play or words, where we can use it as a picture ...but this would be out of context. The text tells us that this is speaking of the type of death Christ would have and He being exalted unto heaven after the death.
Actually aren't both meanings right. When we preach Jesus, we are presenting Christ. We are displaying Him, just as moses did the brass serpent in the wilderness. Both are about life. The preaching of the gospel in a sense is a presentation just like what a salesman uses to convince you to buy what ever he is selling. When we preach, we are presenting Christ. When we are convinced we are sold on the doctrine of Christ. No one is saved with out someone or the scriptures convincing us of Jesus Christ. The whole gospel is the presentation of Christ.
Jarthur001 said:
He died not say "when I die."..for all men die. He was saying..when I die, this death means more then any other death. The lifting up is the victory we have over our sins and someday the victory over death. What happens after Christ death on the cross makes the last point come about. We do not see men running to Christ today. We never have seen this. This is not the meaning of the text. As you have stated…if this were the case…all men would believe.
You've read most of my post and know that I believe that in order to hear a man must first listen and focus on what the scriptures actually say. Some men listen passively others give there undivided attention. Some won't listen at all. The thing that amazes me is that everyone I have ever met knows who Jesus Christ is and what He is. Most avoid anything about Him because they don't want to be convicted. They don't want to hear they have ever been wrong about anything. Some will listen to the point of finding out they have to submit there wills to Him. Most don't get that far. Like King Agrippa. Some listen until they believe they are going have to give up something else like money.
Nothing infuriates a sinner who won't come to Christ, like a message about Christ, or even His blessed name.
No other founder of any religion has had such an effect on men, and that effect is the drawing.
Salvation is conditional it always has been and will always be. The condition is absolute surrender of all that you have or ever will have. It's what is meant by hating your father and mother, brother and sister, and Loving Jesus Christ above all else. The disciples gave up all they had the same is expected from us. What I mean is nothing is as important in my life as Jesus Christ.
Just like the Jews we have to submit to the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Belief, faith , and hope is all necessary in order for us to even understand this. Still none of this saves us because man is not saved by anything that he does. What saves us is the righteousness of Christ. I know scripture also says we are saved by grace and hope but that very grace and hope is Jesus Christ.
Jarthur001 said:
What it is saying is…If I die on the cross…this makes it SURE that this other event will happen. In other words...The light is with you for a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, so that the darkness may not overtake you. The one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going. While you have the light, believe in the light, so that you may become sons of light."......and then...it happens.
The dying on the cross is our submission or surrender this is where we give all for Him.
Jarthur001 said:
Now what is the other event?
Justification
Jarthur001 said:
People want to be saved from hell. People do not want to go to hell, but they do not want to be saved from sin and the sin places them in hell. Man is the sinner. We must be saved from our will to sin.
In Christ...James
The only people I may know who have been saved from there will or, desire to sin are dead. We will as long as we live in this time, always have a carnal desire for sin. It's our human nature. What is spiritual is where our desire for righteousness is. The flesh will always war with our spirits until we die or Christ comes and changes our bodies in that twinkling of the eye. We are weak but He is strong. Through His strength we can over come sin. Some of the sins in my life I no longer desire to do but, not because of my own know how, or strength. However I'm a long ways from being perfect.
We simply have to keep our eyes on Jesus and realize that if do any thing it's Him that does it, because apart from Him we can do nothing.
MB
 

Brother Bob

New Member
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Glad to see you are so more advanced than all the scholars who went before you. You say its to the Jews and the Bible says its to the Twelve Tribes which Judah is only one of them. So, I guess its more than a "no brainer" after all.

av1611jim
No...he did NOT say it was to the Jews. He said it was to the Jewish (nationality) CHRISTIANS!

And FYI: All of Israel was called "Jews" since the return of the Babylonian captivity. So again, your "no brainer" requires a bit more than what you are willing or able to give. Right?

Perhaps a historical study would be in order b4 you quip such nonsense as what you did, ok bro?
First the only tribes that returned were Judah and Benjamin. The other ten lost tribes were north and later migrated to the south. Some of the ten tribes are still lost. If we are going to quote history, then we should get it right.


I wanted to correct this post if I could. First I didn't use the word "no brainer" first, but John I Morris did ,but after reading the

post, I don't think he meant what I thought he did, so I should not of answered him as I did.

Second, the post by Jim above is not correct. He saw the exclamation marks and decided to answer that post without reading

the rest of the thread, I think. He said for me to go study history, but if I need to study history, so does Jesus,

James, Paul and many others. While it is true after the ten lost tribes of Israel began to start returning to Judah they

accepted being called Jews as a (nationality) even though it was not true.

In common speech, the word "Jew" is used to refer to all of the physical and spiritual descendants of Jacob/Israel, as well as to the patriarchs Abraham and Isaac and their wives, and the word "Judaism" is used to refer to their beliefs. Technically, this usage is inaccurate, just as it is technically inaccurate to use the word "Indian" to refer to the original inhabitants of the Americas. However, this technically inaccurate usage is common both within the Jewish community and outside of it, and is therefore used throughout this site.

Even though now and later years Jew was considered a nationality that was not true in the days of the apostles when James

wrote to the "twelve tribes".

Jesus said: Go ye to the lost sheep of the twelve tribes of Israel.

The Good Samaritain: on one side was the Samaritain and on the other was a "Levite".

Paul wrote in his time: I say then, Hath God cast away His people? God forbid, for I am also an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

One last point: All of the ten tribes of Israel have never been found till this day. Some are in Afganistan, Iraq and other places

and still are called by a name of one of the tribes or called an Israelite.

So, in conclusion I guess we all could study and it wouldn't hurt. I say, put more emphasis on scripture than history though.
 
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Brother Bob

New Member
The Good Samaritain: on one side was the Samaritain and on the other was a "Levite".

I thought I better quote the exact scripture.
Luke 10:

"30": And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.

"31": And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

"32": And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

"33": But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
Hello MB,

Sorry to take so long. I'm busy right now, and will be for sometime.

If a free-willer will be true to form, they would ask does "all" mean "all" just as they do in other passages. In the KJV the passage reads.."all men" are drawn. Are all mean drawn? Is this what we see?

elkusw is the greek word used here.
1) to draw, drag off
2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

Therefore, I would have to disagree. Its not that I disagree with ALL of what you said. But if we look at the context, it is not talking about justification..so I disagree with you trying to apply it to this text. If it were, we would be seeing sinners waiting in line to come to church. We would have people coming to our door and asking if they can be saved. But what we see is few in church. And we see others running us off from their house. Now...if it is talking about justification, there is only one "all" that come to Christ. Does all mean all? BTW...the word "men" is not in the greek. It reads...ALL will be drawn. When is this, and who is this?

Therefore there are only two ways to see this, that works with Gods Word, and fits with what we see.

1st it could be...

1) This passage is mis-used by the free-will camp to support their view. The lifting up is talking about his death, and the judgement of all of mankind. The lifting-up is not done by believers, if we stick with the text. Now, other text do show we too are to "lift up" the name of Christ. But this lifting up that we do in other passages, is telling the world about Christ. This is not talking about this, in this verse. If we claim that WE too must lift up Christ based on this verse, we are saying we must put Christ to death.

Next...We do not see all men come to Christ for the judgement day is not here. Before you read the text again, lets read these verses below. In these verses you will see all mankind saying that God is indeed God. All men will come...and all men will say this. Please read below...

Rev 1 says..

5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

The fruit of the lifting up is that Christ took on death and won, and now has the right to judge the nations. Christ will not judge them as much as oversee the judgement. The Bible will act as the Law of God. This is when every man will come. Its judgement day.

John 5:22
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son

Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Psalm 9:7-8 But the LORD shall endure for ever: he hath prepared his throne for judgment. 8 And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.
This is the day that ALL men will come. We do not see ALL men coming now. But.....they will someday. Judgemeny day.

Romans 14:11
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God

Philippians 2:10
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
**********
The text....
23And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

24Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

NOTE: In this view.. this as the key verse. I guess the fruit here could be seen as men. And in a way it is. But I think the greater meaning is the power that comes behind the death of Christ. In either way, one of the key points as the death of Christ. This is when Christ is "lifted up". This is when "his time" is. Christ came to die. Christ was glorified (verse 23) in and after His death. :)
25He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

26If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

27Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

28Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

NOTE: Notice verse 27-28. This is Christ "laying down His life" for us. Christ is asking for the Father to glorify the Fathers name. He is asking the Father to be "lifted up"...to die. He is saying...this is why I came....I'm ready...lets do it.

29The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

30Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

NOTE: Notice "now". Now...because of Christ death, defended death and the evil ways of the Devil. Now...is the time it happened. Now was the death of Christ on the cross. Christ will sit in judgement over the world and Satan. Satan is done for and has been since the cross.

32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

33This he said, signifying what death he should die.
**********

Or...maybe this..

Gill's...
2) I will draw all men to me; which is not to be understood of the concourse of people about him, when on the cross, some for him, and others against him, some to bewail him, and others to reproach him; but rather of the gathering of the elect to him, and in him, as their head and representative, when he was crucified for them; or of the collection of them, through the ministry of the apostles, and of their being brought to believe on him for eternal life and salvation: and this drawing of them to him, in consequence of his death, supposes distance from him, want of power, and will, to came to him, and the efficacious grace of God to bring them, though without any force and compulsion; and this is to be understood not of every individual of human nature; for all are not drawn to Christ, or enabled to come to him, and believe in him. There were many of the Jews who would not, and did not come to him for life; and who instead of being drawn to him in this sense, when lifted up on the cross, vilified and reproached him; moreover, in the preceding verse, "a world" is spoken of, whose judgment, or condemnation, was now come; and besides, there was at this time a multitude of souls in hell, who could not, nor never will be, drawn to Christ; and a greater number still there will be at the last day, who, instead of drawing to him in this gracious way and manner, will be bid to depart from him, as having been workers of iniquity. Christ died indeed for all men who are drawn unto him; but this is not true of all men, that are, were, or shall be in the world. Add to this, that the word "men" is not in the text, it is only pantav, "all": Beza's most ancient copy, and some others, and the Vulgate Latin version read panta, "all things"; and by "all" are meant, all the elect of God, all the children of God, "that were scattered abroad"; the Persic version reads, "I will draw my friends to me"; it designs some of all sorts of men, of every state, condition, age, sex, and nation, Gentiles as well as Jews, and especially the former; which agrees with the ancient prophecy, Ge 49:10, and with the context, and the occasion of the words, which was the desire of the Greeks, that were come to the feast, to see Jesus; and which was a specimen of the large numbers of them, that should be drawn to Christ, through the preaching of the Gospel, after his death: the Jews say, that in the time to come, or in the days of the Messiah, all the proselytes shall be Myrwrg, "drawn", shall freely become proselytes {e}. The allusion here, is to the setting up of a standard or ensign, to gather persons together. Christ's cross is the standard, his love is the banner, and he himself is the ensign, which draw souls to himself, and engage them to enlist themselves under him, and become his volunteers in the day his power; see Isa 11:10.
************


There you go... :) Take your pick. Now that's what i'm talking about!! :)


In Christ...James
 
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MB

Well-Known Member
Hi JArthur;
A well thought out and written post and I agree with a good part of it.

Therefore, I would have to disagree. Its not that I disagree with ALL of what you said. But if we look at the context, it is not talking about justification..so I disagree with you trying to apply it to this text. If it were, we would be seeing sinners waiting in line to come to church. We would have people coming to our door and asking if they can be saved. But what we see is few in church. And we see others running us off from their house. Now...if it is talking about justification, there is only one "all" that come to Christ. Does all mean all? BTW...the word "men" is not in the greek. It reads...ALL will be drawn. When is this, and who is this?
I have no doubt that this verse Jn 12:32 is talking about Christ being lifted up on a cross. It's what is in my opinion the gospel is all about. More than any of the events in the entire bible the death and resurrection of Christ is the very heart of the gospel. These are the two most convincing and heart wrenching facts of scripture.
If we ask our selves what Christ meant when he said;
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Then we see the purpose of why the serpent was lifted up.

Num 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Num 21:7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
Num 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
Num 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

The serpent that Moses lifted up gave them faith in God because, they did as God said to do making the serpent of brass and lifting it up. It gave them faith because when they did it they lived in spite of the snakes. God could have removed the snakes but He didn't. They lived because of there faith and obedience.
Christ says;
" And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," Or in other words just like Moses lifted up that serpent Christ must be lifted up in like manner. Like manner meaning not only on a pole or stake but also for the same purpose. To give men faith. When we tell the story of Christ and men receive it we are lifting up Christ with the same purpose as in Moses having that serpent lifted up. We are just lifting Christ up in the listeners view

Your definition is right about the word draw.:thumbs:

The fruit of the lifting up is that Christ took on death and won, and now has the right to judge the nations. Christ will not judge them as much as oversee the judgement. The Bible will act as the Law of God. This is when every man will come. Its judgement day.

I believe all men are drawn to Christ not all are saved because not all men receive the faith of Christ. We can't be saved by our own faith as I've tried to get accross before. If we were we would be saved as a result of our own righteousness which is filthy and can't even save one breath. It is in the righteousness of Christ that the faith we need to be saved by, lives. Being drawn to Christ is what creates such reactions by everyone who even hears His name. I'm sorry we disagree on this point. Even men raised by the same parents have different views.
One thing that really puzzels me is that neither one of us seems able to convince the other.

Paul said the whole earth has heard;
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Everyone of us has responded to it even though we may not be aware of it at this particular moment.
for all are not drawn to Christ, or enabled to come to him, and believe in him.
Since there are only two types of people The Gentiles and Jews all have been granted repentance.
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
This is all the enablement that is necessary.

MB


 

MB

Well-Known Member
Hi Bob;
First the only tribes that returned were Judah and Benjamin. The other ten lost tribes were north and later migrated to the south. Some of the ten tribes are still lost. If we are going to quote history, then we should get it right.
Did you forget the Levities? Because just about every tribe had or has a Rabbi. Wouldn't that make it only 9 tribes lost if indeed they are lost? I believe the levitical priest are very dogmatic about who can be a priest. Wasn't Paul a levitcal priest? I know He was a member of the Sanhedrin
MB
 

Brother Bob

New Member
According to Paul himself, He was from the tribe of Benjamin. I know there were Levites there for sure and does bring a question Paul being from the Benjamin tribe and of the priesthood.

Rom 11:1¶I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.

Also, history always calls it the ten lost tribes of Israel. I am sure there were some mixed with Judah when they returned from Babylon.

BTW, thanks for answering my post. I was beginning to think I had the itch since my suspension. :)
 

MB

Well-Known Member
Hi Bob;
Brother Bob said:
According to Paul himself, He was from the tribe of Benjamin. I know there were Levites there for sure and does bring a question Paul being from the Benjamin tribe and of the priesthood.

Rom 11:1¶I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.

Also, history always calls it the ten lost tribes of Israel. I am sure there were some mixed with Judah when they returned from Babylon.

BTW, thanks for answering my post. I was beginning to think I had the itch since my suspension. :)
You're right he was from Benjamin. I had forgotten that.
MB
 
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