1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Did Christ died for all men or just some men?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by MB, Dec 17, 2006.

Top Posters
Page 11 of 12
  1. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,602
    Likes Received:
    6
    Whole Truth

    We cannot contain the whole truth of God by pieces of bread, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.

    Without Jesus be lifted up like the serpeant in the desert, no one can be saved.

    We must lift up Jesus for men to be drawn to Him.
     
    #201 psalms109:31, Jan 3, 2007
  2. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    OK..let me ask it another way, for I see you fail to see the point.

    Christ said....
    Matt: 11:28
    Come unto me all who are weary and burdened, I shall give you rest

    John 6:37
    All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    John 6:44
    No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


    So...........

    Is this passage saying ALL OF MANKIND IS DRAWN TO CHRIST???????

     
    #202 Jarthur001, Jan 3, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2007
  3. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,602
    Likes Received:
    6
    ok

    I've been seeing yours, but you are not seeing mine.

    No one can come to the Jesus unless the Father draws Him.

    We are the messenger of the Father, so if we do not go out lifted up Jesus then no one will come.

    By the words of Jesus those who are His is believers.

    Those who believe in me shall be saved.

    Who has the Father given to Him, it is believers.

    We know all that has been given to Jesus will come, so we must go out.

    Those who put thier trust in Jesus will no wise be cast out, because Jesus can not disown Himself.
     
    #203 psalms109:31, Jan 3, 2007
  4. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello psalms109:31,


    agreed.

    If this is the meaning of the passage....(I'll say again I do not believe you are right in the meaning...But..)..If we lift-up Jesus..will ALL men come to Christ?


    again..a yes or no will work fine. :)

    last time I'll ask. :)
     
    #204 Jarthur001, Jan 3, 2007
  5. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,696
    Likes Received:
    2
    Yes.
    Which translation is yours? What is the meaning of "ean"?
    ESV Joh 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

    How do you define "lifted up"?
    Gill -
    JFB -
    Clarke -
     
    #205 webdog, Jan 3, 2007
  6. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,696
    Likes Received:
    2
    Absolutely. Is it saying that ALL OF MANKIND IS NOT DRAWN TO CHRIST???????? Not without reading that INTO the text, and assuming the converse of John 6:37, 44 are immutable truth (it's not).
     
    #206 webdog, Jan 3, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2007
  7. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,602
    Likes Received:
    6
    Yes and no is not the answer

    If we lift Jesus up all men will be drawn, but not all men will come.

    We are drawned with this to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be condemned.

    The young rich ruler was drawned but walked away.

    Through the Gospel, God has placed before all men life and death, so choose Jesus and live.

    Do not worry about if you are the elect of God or not. God does love you. If you come to Jesus, Jesus will in no wise cast you out.

    You thinking you are not the elect is just an excuse. God didn't say that He loved the elect that He sent His Son, but the world.

    Jesus has not come to condemn the world but to save it.

    I will continue to lift up Jesus for salvation, for He is our only hope.
     
    #207 psalms109:31, Jan 3, 2007
  8. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    262
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Hi JArthur;
    I don't do that, so not all freewill believers do. I don't dodge election because our election is in the fact that Christ died for the whole world.
    Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    He chose to die for all of us. We have all been chosen for Salvation. It's God's will.
    1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
    1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

    I'm at a loss as to why you said this. I never even hinted at such a thing what I said was;

    My meaning is that if man doesn't ever do it, God wouldn't have known it. You said;

    Maybe you could explain how God could know I did something, if I didn't do this something He is suppose to know.

    There is no question that God has chosen us first but we must also chose to submit to Him because our righteousness can't save us.

    Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
    Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
    Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
    God's foreknowledge is not what determines man's Salvation.
    Where does scripture say that? You and I both know that the atonement doesn't save a single soul but only makes it possible. What saves man? Were we all saved before the foundation of the world because of our election? Were we saved because of God's foreknowledge? No we are saved by the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Where do we get the righteousness of Christ? It's a gift. Is it given to men because of what they have done? No! It's given to men because of what Christ has done. Is there any obligation on the Part of men? Yes there is and if they do not submit they will never have the righteousness of Christ. The reason! because we cannot resist and receive.
    We are not His People, His Church, His sheep, or His children until we submit to HIM.
    Not even The descendants of Jacob are saved with out submission.
    Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
    MB
     
    #208 MB, Jan 3, 2007
  9. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    I Say it is the death of Christ, for this is what the text says it is. Gill agrees. Clack seems to say this. Brown...who knows. :) But the text is clear. It is talking about his death and judgement. This is not OUR job. Christ has done it.

    Can we use this as a picture? maybe. But the text has another meaning.

    BTW>>As to the word "when"....it matters little in the text. Use any word you want...if or when.

    Text...
     
    #209 Jarthur001, Jan 3, 2007
  10. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    oh great...then all men are saved. Now I understand.

    Matt: 11:28
    Come unto me all who are weary and burdened, I shall give you rest

    John 6:37
    All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    John 6:44
    No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
     
    #210 Jarthur001, Jan 3, 2007
  11. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0

    Thanks....:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:
     
    #211 Jarthur001, Jan 3, 2007
  12. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,602
    Likes Received:
    6
    Believers

    Only believers will be saved, for even the very elect of God will be cut out for unbelief.

    Do not be arogant but afraid if God did not spare the natural branches He will not spare us either.

    Remember the non believing Jews the elect of God was not cut out because they were not drawn, but for unbelief.

    Matthew 23:37
    "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
     
    #212 psalms109:31, Jan 3, 2007
  13. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    MB...Thanks for your reply.

    I will address this late tonight or in the morning. I need to eat...go to church at 6...and then play hoops at 9 tonight. :)

    Stick around...you will like this one. :)

    I'll leave you with homework....study Leviticus. We will hit that book hard next time.

    Later...

    In Christ...James
     
    #213 Jarthur001, Jan 3, 2007
  14. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,696
    Likes Received:
    2
    If you believe "draw = saved" you would be correct....and in serious need of a dictionary. Lately I have seen more strawmen from you than watching the Wizard of OZ.
     
    #214 webdog, Jan 3, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2007
  15. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    262
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Hi Tom;
    How is it that you believe that no Gentiles could have already been saved? Do you believe that no Gentiles were ever saved before Christ?
    Where does God's word say that these sheep hadn't been saved yet? It doesn't even say they were lost sheep. Why do you think he was speaking of the unsaved as though they were sheep?
    Christ said.
    Luk 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
    Before Salvation Satan is our master other wise we wouldn't need a savior.
    MB
     
    #215 MB, Jan 3, 2007
  16. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,696
    Likes Received:
    2
    Are only the nebulous "elect" weary and burdened? Does John 6:37 say "All that don't come to Me were never drawn and given by the Father, and I will cast them out"? Does John 6:44 say "Those who don't come to me were never drawn by the Father, and I will not raise them up on the last day"?

    Is the converse of this statment true "Everyone named Nick Saban is a liar"? :D
     
    #216 webdog, Jan 3, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2007
  17. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,602
    Likes Received:
    6
    Drawn

    We can be drawn to Jesus, by listen to the message and then walk away, diffently being drawned does not mean you will be saved, because you have to accept Him and His word.

    The young rich ruler was drawned to Jesus heard the message and then walked away.

    We think we have so much if we leave without Jesus we have nothing.
     
    #217 psalms109:31, Jan 3, 2007
  18. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    2
    MB,

    I do believe that Gentiles were saved early on, but the primary target of Jesus' message was the Jews.

    In Matt 10:5, Jesus sent out the twelve, and instructed them not to go to the Gentiles or the Samaritans. Yet a Samaritan woman was saved through Jesus' direct witness.

    In Luke 12:32, Jesus referred to his disciples (Jews, of course) as "little flock." This is consistent with a "flock" referring to his sheep (Jews).

    So, in John 10:16, when Jesus refers to "other sheep not of this fold" is it not a stretch to conclude that he is referring to gentiles; gentiles not yet saved, for Jesus said he must bring them. This is not some wild interpretation. It is widely accepted among a large number of scholars that "other sheep" refers to Gentiles--Gentiles who were yet to be saved.

    Just as Jesus primary ministry was to Jews, yet some Gentiles were saved, so it was that Israel rejected him as the Messiah, yet some Jews were saved.
     
    #218 Tom Butler, Jan 3, 2007
  19. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    262
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Hi Tom;
    I believe the "bringing" here is meant into one fold as opposed to more than one. One Church rather than many as it is now. I don't mean ecumenism, but the unity Christ will bring to His body, when He returns. The body of Christ is not united, nor can be as long as there is division over theology.

    I know many believe what you present but I don't want to presume this is true when we know the majority is rarely ever right about spiritual things.


    MB
     
    #219 MB, Jan 3, 2007
  20. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    2
    Actually, I agree with you, and Paul agrees with us in Ephesians 3, where he speaks of a mystery now revealed. It is (v.6) "that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of one body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.."

    I read this to be fellow heirs with believing Jews.
     
    #220 Tom Butler, Jan 3, 2007
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 11 of 12
Loading...