Did Christ died for all men or just some men?

[psalms109:31]

Whole Truth

We cannot contain the whole truth of God by pieces of bread, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.

Without Jesus be lifted up like the serpeant in the desert, no one can be saved.

We must lift up Jesus for men to be drawn to Him.

 

[Jarthur001]

We cannot contain the whole truth of God by pieces of bread, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.

Without Jesus be lifted up like the serpeant in the desert, no one can be saved.

We must lift up Jesus for men to be drawn to Him.

OK..let me ask it another way, for I see you fail to see the point.

Christ said....
Matt: 11:28
Come unto me all who are weary and burdened, I shall give you rest

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


So...........

Is this passage saying ALL OF MANKIND IS DRAWN TO CHRIST???????

12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.
12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

 

[psalms109:31]

ok

I've been seeing yours, but you are not seeing mine.

No one can come to the Jesus unless the Father draws Him.

We are the messenger of the Father, so if we do not go out lifted up Jesus then no one will come.

By the words of Jesus those who are His is believers.

Those who believe in me shall be saved.

Who has the Father given to Him, it is believers.

We know all that has been given to Jesus will come, so we must go out.

Those who put thier trust in Jesus will no wise be cast out, because Jesus can not disown Himself.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello psalms109:31,

No one can come to the Jesus unless the Father draws Him.

agreed.

We are the messenger of the Father, so if we do not go out lifted up Jesus then no one will come.

If this is the meaning of the passage....(I'll say again I do not believe you are right in the meaning...But..)..If we lift-up Jesus..will ALL men come to Christ?

12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.
12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

again..a yes or no will work fine.

last time I'll ask.

 

[webdog]

I hold another view so this is fair to ask.

Has this event happened?
Is it happening today?

Yes.

The verse reads..
12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

This passage is used by many, saying that ALL of mankind are drawn to Christ. I will word it just as you wish. psalms109:31 says..it is up to us to lift up Christ.

Which translation is yours? What is the meaning of "ean"?
ESV Joh 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

When Christ is lifed up, are all men drawn by the Holy Spirit? If it is up to us to lift up Christ...WHEN we lift up Christ do all men hear this? If not WHEN will all men be drawn to Christ?

You only use a stawman as your own strawman not to reply.

How do you define "lifted up"?
Gill -

The death of Christ is here signified by his being "lifted up from the earth", in allusion to the lifting up of the brazen serpent on the pole; and shows, that his death would not be natural, but violent, and would be public, and not private; and fitly expresses his mediation between God, and men, being lifted up between the heavens and the earth; and points out the death of the cross, as is intimated in the next verse: and the "if" here does not suppose that his death, and the manner of it, were uncertain, for it was determined by God, agreed to by himself, predicted in the Scriptures, signified by types, and foretold by himself, and was necessary for the salvation of his people; but it designs the time of his drawing persons to himself, which is afterwards expressed, and may be rendered, "when I am lifted up", as it is by the Syriac, Arabic, and Persic versions

JFB -

The "I" here is emphatic - I, taking the place of the world’s ejected prince. "If lifted up," means not only after that I have been lifted up, but, through the virtue of that uplifting.

Clarke -

After I shall have died and risen again, by the preaching of my word and the influence of my Spirit, I shall attract and illuminate both Jews and Gentiles. It was one of the peculiar characteristics of the Messiah, that unto him should the gathering of the people be, Gen_49:10. And probably our Lord refers to the prophecy, Isa_11:10, which peculiarly belonged to the Gentiles: "There shall be a root of Jesse which shall stand for an Ensign of the people, to it shall the Gentiles seek, and his rest shall be glorious."

 

[webdog]

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


So...........

Is this passage saying ALL OF MANKIND IS DRAWN TO CHRIST???????

Absolutely. Is it saying that ALL OF MANKIND IS NOT DRAWN TO CHRIST???????? Not without reading that INTO the text, and assuming the converse of John 6:37, 44 are immutable truth (it's not).

 

[psalms109:31]

Yes and no is not the answer

If we lift Jesus up all men will be drawn, but not all men will come.

We are drawned with this to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be condemned.

The young rich ruler was drawned but walked away.

Through the Gospel, God has placed before all men life and death, so choose Jesus and live.

Do not worry about if you are the elect of God or not. God does love you. If you come to Jesus, Jesus will in no wise cast you out.

You thinking you are not the elect is just an excuse. God didn't say that He loved the elect that He sent His Son, but the world.

Jesus has not come to condemn the world but to save it.

I will continue to lift up Jesus for salvation, for He is our only hope.

 

[MB]

Hi JArthur;

And that would be my point MB. Free-willers go to the ends of the earth to get around election, saying it based on God looking down in time and only doing what he sees happen. This is the same as hyper-calvinism, other then God is not in control, but rather mans will controls God from before time was. I think I'll stick with Calvinism. At least in it, God is not a robot.

I don't do that, so not all freewill believers do. I don't dodge election because our election is in the fact that Christ died for the whole world.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
He chose to die for all of us. We have all been chosen for Salvation. It's God's will.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Well well well. I guess all do not believe God knows all. Here we have a man teaching God something. humm. Not sure about that.

I'm at a loss as to why you said this. I never even hinted at such a thing what I said was;

Why would God determine anything for man why not just know it and be done with it if his foreknowledge had anything to do with it? The reason is, man must do it in order for God to know it.

My meaning is that if man doesn't ever do it, God wouldn't have known it. You said;

Well....my God does.

Maybe you could explain how God could know I did something, if I didn't do this something He is suppose to know.

There is no question that God has chosen us first but we must also chose to submit to Him because our righteousness can't save us.

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Quote:
You questioned the word "MIGHT" in John 3:17 as if it doesn't really mean what it clearly says. It doesn't mean Johnny will be saved but might be saved.
nope. You missed the point. If God foresaw this happen...johnny MUST be saved.

God's foreknowledge is not what determines man's Salvation.

If the ransom is paid for, then there is no guilt. This means all go to heaven.

Where does scripture say that? You and I both know that the atonement doesn't save a single soul but only makes it possible. What saves man? Were we all saved before the foundation of the world because of our election? Were we saved because of God's foreknowledge? No we are saved by the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Where do we get the righteousness of Christ? It's a gift. Is it given to men because of what they have done? No! It's given to men because of what Christ has done. Is there any obligation on the Part of men? Yes there is and if they do not submit they will never have the righteousness of Christ. The reason! because we cannot resist and receive.
We are not His People, His Church, His sheep, or His children until we submit to HIM.
Not even The descendants of Jacob are saved with out submission.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
MB

 

[Jarthur001]

How do you define "lifted up"?
Gill .....

JFB -..........

Clarke -.........

I Say it is the death of Christ, for this is what the text says it is. Gill agrees. Clack seems to say this. Brown...who knows. But the text is clear. It is talking about his death and judgement. This is not OUR job. Christ has done it.

Can we use this as a picture? maybe. But the text has another meaning.

BTW>>As to the word "when"....it matters little in the text. Use any word you want...if or when.

Text...

12:18 For this cause the people also met him, for that they heard that he had done this miracle.
12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.
12:20 And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:
12:21 The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.
12:22 Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus.
12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will [my] Father honour.
12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
12:28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, [saying], I have both glorified [it], and will glorify [it] again.
12:29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard [it], said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
12:30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: >>>>> this is it. >>>>>now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.
12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?
12:35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.
12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, [/12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. QUOTE]

 

[Jarthur001]

Absolutely. Is it saying that ALL OF MANKIND IS NOT DRAWN TO CHRIST???????? Not without reading that INTO the text, and assuming the converse of John 6:37, 44 are immutable truth (it's not).

oh great...then all men are saved. Now I understand.

Matt: 11:28
Come unto me all who are weary and burdened, I shall give you rest

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Jarthur001]

If we lift Jesus up all men will be drawn, but not all men will come.

We are drawned with this to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be condemned.

The young rich ruler was drawned but walked away.

Through the Gospel, God has placed before all men life and death, so choose Jesus and live.

Do not worry about if you are the elect of God or not. God does love you. If you come to Jesus, Jesus will in no wise cast you out.

You thinking you are not the elect is just an excuse. God didn't say that He loved the elect that He sent His Son, but the world.

Jesus has not come to condemn the world but to save it.

I will continue to lift up Jesus for salvation, for He is our only hope.

Thanks....:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

 

[psalms109:31]

Believers

Only believers will be saved, for even the very elect of God will be cut out for unbelief.

Do not be arogant but afraid if God did not spare the natural branches He will not spare us either.

Remember the non believing Jews the elect of God was not cut out because they were not drawn, but for unbelief.

Matthew 23:37
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hi JArthur;

I don't do that, so not all freewill believers do. I don't dodge election because our election is in the fact that Christ died for the whole world.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
He chose to die for all of us. We have all been chosen for Salvation. It's God's will.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

I'm at a loss as to why you said this. I never even hinted at such a thing what I said was;

My meaning is that if man doesn't ever do it, God wouldn't have known it. You said;

Maybe you could explain how God could know I did something, if I didn't do this something He is suppose to know.

There is no question that God has chosen us first but we must also chose to submit to Him because our righteousness can't save us.

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

God's foreknowledge is not what determines man's Salvation.

Where does scripture say that? You and I both know that the atonement doesn't save a single soul but only makes it possible. What saves man? Were we all saved before the foundation of the world because of our election? Were we saved because of God's foreknowledge? No we are saved by the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Where do we get the righteousness of Christ? It's a gift. Is it given to men because of what they have done? No! It's given to men because of what Christ has done. Is there any obligation on the Part of men? Yes there is and if they do not submit they will never have the righteousness of Christ. The reason! because we cannot resist and receive.
We are not His People, His Church, His sheep, or His children until we submit to HIM.
Not even The descendants of Jacob are saved with out submission.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
MB

MB...Thanks for your reply.

I will address this late tonight or in the morning. I need to eat...go to church at 6...and then play hoops at 9 tonight.

Stick around...you will like this one.

I'll leave you with homework....study Leviticus. We will hit that book hard next time.

Later...

In Christ...James

 

[webdog]

oh great...then all men are saved. Now I understand.

If you believe "draw = saved" you would be correct....and in serious need of a dictionary. Lately I have seen more strawmen from you than watching the Wizard of OZ.

 

[MB]

Hi Tom;

Then please explain John 10:16 "...other sheep have I which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear my voice, and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

An obvious reference to Gentiles. Jesus called them his sheep.

How is it that you believe that no Gentiles could have already been saved? Do you believe that no Gentiles were ever saved before Christ?
Where does God's word say that these sheep hadn't been saved yet? It doesn't even say they were lost sheep. Why do you think he was speaking of the unsaved as though they were sheep?
Christ said.
Luk 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Before Salvation Satan is our master other wise we wouldn't need a savior.
MB

 

[webdog]

oh great...then all men are saved. Now I understand.

Matt: 11:28
Come unto me all who are weary and burdened, I shall give you rest

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Are only the nebulous "elect" weary and burdened? Does John 6:37 say "All that don't come to Me were never drawn and given by the Father, and I will cast them out"? Does John 6:44 say "Those who don't come to me were never drawn by the Father, and I will not raise them up on the last day"?

Is the converse of this statment true "Everyone named Nick Saban is a liar"?

 

[psalms109:31]

Drawn

We can be drawn to Jesus, by listen to the message and then walk away, diffently being drawned does not mean you will be saved, because you have to accept Him and His word.

The young rich ruler was drawned to Jesus heard the message and then walked away.

We think we have so much if we leave without Jesus we have nothing.

 

[Tom Butler]

MB,

I do believe that Gentiles were saved early on, but the primary target of Jesus' message was the Jews.

In Matt 10:5, Jesus sent out the twelve, and instructed them not to go to the Gentiles or the Samaritans. Yet a Samaritan woman was saved through Jesus' direct witness.

In Luke 12:32, Jesus referred to his disciples (Jews, of course) as "little flock." This is consistent with a "flock" referring to his sheep (Jews).

So, in John 10:16, when Jesus refers to "other sheep not of this fold" is it not a stretch to conclude that he is referring to gentiles; gentiles not yet saved, for Jesus said he must bring them. This is not some wild interpretation. It is widely accepted among a large number of scholars that "other sheep" refers to Gentiles--Gentiles who were yet to be saved.

Just as Jesus primary ministry was to Jews, yet some Gentiles were saved, so it was that Israel rejected him as the Messiah, yet some Jews were saved.

 

[MB]

Hi Tom;

MB,

I do believe that Gentiles were saved early on, but the primary target of Jesus' message was the Jews.

In Matt 10:5, Jesus sent out the twelve, and instructed them not to go to the Gentiles or the Samaritans. Yet a Samaritan woman was saved through Jesus' direct witness.

In Luke 12:32, Jesus referred to his disciples (Jews, of course) as "little flock." This is consistent with a "flock" referring to his sheep (Jews).

So, in John 10:16, when Jesus refers to "other sheep not of this fold" is it not a stretch to conclude that he is referring to gentiles; gentiles not yet saved, for Jesus said he must bring them.

I believe the "bringing" here is meant into one fold as opposed to more than one. One Church rather than many as it is now. I don't mean ecumenism, but the unity Christ will bring to His body, when He returns. The body of Christ is not united, nor can be as long as there is division over theology.

I know many believe what you present but I don't want to presume this is true when we know the majority is rarely ever right about spiritual things.


MB

 

[Tom Butler]

I believe the "bringing" here is meant into one fold as opposed to more than one. One Church rather than many as it is now. I don't mean ecumenism, but the unity Christ will bring to His body, when He returns. The body of Christ is not united, nor can be as long as there is division over theology.

I know many believe what you present but I don't want to presume this is true when we know the majority is rarely ever right about spiritual things.

Actually, I agree with you, and Paul agrees with us in Ephesians 3, where he speaks of a mystery now revealed. It is (v.6) "that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of one body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.."

I read this to be fellow heirs with believing Jews.