Did Christ died for all men or just some men?

[Allan]

Brother Bob , where does it say that the Spirit is striving with all people to believe ? He has forebearance and great patience even with vessels made for ( fitted for ) destruction . However , I do not see where you get the idea that God is striving with all to believe . Most people in the history of the world have not even heard the good news . It was His will that they not hear .

When Christ Himself states of the Spirit and His ministry:
...He will convict the WORLD of sin, of righteousness, and of Judgment to come...

Actually They have ALL heard truth (Rom 5) just not the fulness of that truth (Christ) and they will be judged on what they did with that truth they did have (accept or reject). If they will accept that which nature declares and the conscience reveals (the truth of God in Nature) He will most definately send for His messenger to reveal the fullness of His light and truth - Christ Jesus.
And it is His will that they hear and see.

Jesus - is the light that lighteth EVERY MAN that cometh into the WORLD.
But not every man will accept that light or truth.

 

[Allan]

Some here are under the mistaken impression that because one is not able under his own power to turn to God -- that that person should not be punished by God eternally . That's the old Pelagian argument which says that inability limits obligation

Your first sentence is a complete misunderstanding from someone who will not listen but persists in untruth no matter how many times they are told different. That is NO WHERE NEAR what people hold to or believe on here.
We believe that if God left us alone (to ourselves) No one would seek after God.
But no where between the covers of the Blessed Book do we see man has no ability to come to God when God reveals truth and light. God did not leave man alone but placed truth in front of him both in Nature, his conscience, His Word, and His followers lifestlyes.
However, inability DOES limit obligation. Man is not unable to come to God, but that without God revealing even the most basic truths, Man does not even know that he NEEDS God. If God is involved in revealing truths (even in Nature and the conscience) then God enables man to accept or reject that which He enables man to see. For man can not even see truth unless God enables. Man is condemed because he WONT turn to God not that God wont allow him. I don't agree with Peligain on much of anything but this is truth despite his other flawed concepts.

But divine commands are still valid even though no one has the ability in and of himself to turn to God .

True and not. Man in and of himself can not turn to God - this is not inability but lack of knowledge because we don't know we are in NEED of God unless God reveal truth. A divine command given that if NOT obeyed will result in the damnation of a person and on the same note, never give that person the option of that hope of salvation MAKES God unjust by His own standards - Not mans. I didn't say unfair but unjust. Giving a call to repent but not allowing some to repent and thereby condeming them to hell goes against Gods very nature. But we know historically and biblically that God gives this call to ALL men because Christ died for All Men. Yet, God foreknew not All men would follow.

The Lord's commands including "Repent and Believe ! " are in effect with full authority and no exceptions . It does not matter at all what people are able to do -- it's what they ought to do . All people are under this . Because someone is impotent to obey does not negate the divine imperative .

You can impune the very Holiness and Justice of God if you want but I will not. If it is about what THEY aught to do, then it necessitates that they are able to do it. Study the very words you are trying to redefine. Ability and responsibility and if not I can show you.

If someone can not obey and God knows this and then gives this command that sentensed them to death - you have made a mockery of Gods justice AND Holiness. God standard of justice is set against His own word as we are that we may know the Justice and righteousness of God. God hates an unjust wieght... But we know God will judge every man according to his works. What are his works...That which he did with truth!

The Bible does not say anywhere between its covers that spiritual helplessness gets someone off the hook against God's claims on them

Agreed and this is why Jesus is the light that lighteth EVERY MAN that cometh into the WORLD... AND... The Spirit is come to convict the WORD of Sin, Righteousness, and the judgment to come.

 

[Rippon]

Dear Allan , you are misinformed . I am telling the truth and am not lying . There have been numerous pepole here on the BB who think God should not punish those who have no ability to believe . They think it is preposterous for God to punish someone for failing to do what they ought . It was said that would be unjust . So my stance remains . Pelagianism is very present here on the BB.

No one who has only the light of nature will be accepted by the Lord . They have no excuse for not knowing God savingly . They will not acknowlege Him in the fullest sense . Those who do not have the Law will perish outside the Law . They stand condemned because they fail to obey the Law written in their hearts .

People do many things against God's commands even though they have never seen or heard His commands -- God has inscribed the Law in their hearts and they willfully reject its import . I fail to see how that impunes God's character .

The way you quote the KJV about God " lighteneth every man "demonstrates that you do not understand that the verse is referring to all classes and types of people . Every single person has not been so enlightened .

 

[GordonSlocum]

It may be that we have all heard stories about someone in a remote area coming to Christ who had no apparent witness. Someone who was seeking God, and God sends a witness so they can hear the Gospel.

My personal view is that God knows all real and potential possibilities. Lets say there are 100 people in an area where no witness has ever been. Would any of them believe if they heard the Gospel? I don't know but God does.

If you are a TULIP person ( I am not ) the question is just as valid. Regardless of which side of the fence we are on if one of God's Elect is of the 100 then that person will be presented with the Gospel.

If a Calvinist can say amen to this then why is it that a non-Calvinist from a Calvinist perspective not say the same thing?

So, from my perspective (and don't call me an Arminian for I am not ) God knows all that will call on Him and He makes sure a witness is provided to them so they can hear the message and believe. I believe this is why some doors are closed and others opened to missions.

Gordon

 

[Allan]

Dear Allan , you are misinformed . I am telling the truth and am not lying . There have been numerous pepole here on the BB who think God should not punish those who have no ability to believe . They think it is preposterous for God to punish someone for failing to do what they ought . It was said that would be unjust . So my stance remains . Pelagianism is very present here on the BB.

I never said you were lying brother, what I said was that you have a misunderstanding. Those who state it would be unjust are very much correct from the View are looking at it from, just as your view see this differently. And it is a complete misnomer to label a persons belief Pelegainistic because they hold to an argument he did. That would be no different than labeling someone a Calvinist because they believe in the persevence of the Saints only. Of a truth you can not be a Calvinist unless you hold to ALL 5 points. Remove or disprove one point the entire system collapes on its like a house of cards as each point is dependent on all the others.

No one who has only the light of nature will be accepted by the Lord . They have no excuse for not knowing God savingly . They will not acknowlege Him in the fullest sense . Those who do not have the Law will perish outside the Law . They stand condemned because they fail to obey the Law written in their hearts .

Again you misunderstood what I was saying. I never said nor insinuated that the truth in nature and or our conscience will cause one to accept the Lord. I stated that if they will believe that little bit of truth they have and desire to know more God will send someone who will bring them the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Yes they do fail to keep the law written in their hearts but NOT ALL will perish

People do many things against God's commands even though they have never seen or heard His commands -- God has inscribed the Law in their hearts and they willfully reject its import . I fail to see how that impunes God's character .

The way you quote the KJV about God " lighteneth every man "demonstrates that you do not understand that the verse is referring to all classes and types of people . Every single person has not been so enlightened .[/QUOTE]
If it is about what THEY aught to do, then it necessitates that they are able to do it. Study the very words you are trying to redefine.
If someone can not obey and God knows this and then gives this command that sentensed them to death - you have made a mockery of Gods justice AND Holiness. God standard of justice is set against His own word as we are that we may know the Justice and righteousness of God.

 

[MB]

Hi Peachtree;

Man’s inability

Romans 8:5-8 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Pleasing God and simple hearing are two different things. This passage doesn't say man cannot hear. People never listen in order to please. They listen because of there own interest.

The ones that believed are the ones that have been predestinated

Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


Im sure we won't conclude this 400 year old debate today.

I suppose men can debate things that aren't in scripture forever. It's just that what isn't in scripture isn't God's word. So why should I believe it? This arguement is a lot older than just a mere 400 years. God's word has been argued since Adam and Eve.

Actually act 13:48 says nothing about predestination but as long as you brought it up we are all chosen IN HIM. This chosing I believe is to be savable.
I see nothing in scripture making this predestination or election particular. So I must agree it is meant for all men, not just some men. On the other hand if we are predestined to be saved in particular then this passage can't be right.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

It's true we have been chosen before the foundation of the world as in;
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Please notice that it also says that we "should be holy and with out blame" not will be. You see if all men put on the righteousness of Christ they would all be seen as holy and with out blame. The problem is, not all put on the righteousness of Christ. Many claim to be Christian but none are Christian until they submit them selves to Him.
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
A submission is required of all of us. Being predestined or chosen means little with out our submission. The Jews aren't saved because it's God's will they are only saved if they submit to the righteousness of God, Jesus Christ. The same is true for all men we either submit or we die.
MB

 

[MB]

Hi Sundoulos;

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.


Who shall he save? "His people," not the whole world.

St. John disagrees with you.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Is the whole world His people? I believe they are His since He died for them paying the ransom for them. Still there's that word "might" in verse 17 this shows there is a condition to be met. If not met, they're not saved.

MB

 

[GordonSlocum]

Hi Sundoulos;


St. John disagrees with you.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Is the whole world His people? I believe they are His since He died for them paying the ransom for them. Still there's that word "might" in verse 17 this shows there is a condition to be met. If not met, they're not saved.

MB

The "might" word is over looked by our Calvinist Brothers in Christ. They also hate the "foreknow" word. Have you noticed how some like to confuse people by saying “prescience is something different from foresight and foreknowledge?” The lengths they go to explain away universal atonement and free will is unbelievable. How about the crazy idea that a person must first be saved to get saved. Along comes Johnny, God zaps him with “regeneration” and then “infused faith into his soul” this will in turn make him believe.”. Sounds like some ball of yarn that a cat got a hold of and tangled up big time. I do believe the horse is supposed to bull the cart.

 

[Amy.G]

Originally Posted by sundoulos
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

I believe "His people" in this verse refers to the Jews. Not NT Christians.

 

[Rippon]

So Christ died only for believing Jews Amy ? No . He laid His life down for His sheep scattered among all -- both the Jews and the Gentiles . Christ died for the Church -- He purchased her with His blood . The Church is universal in scope -- the elect from among all the nations .

 

[Jarthur001]

The "might" word is over looked by our Calvinist Brothers in Christ. They also hate the "foreknow" word. Have you noticed how some like to confuse people by saying “prescience is something different from foresight and foreknowledge?” The lengths they go to explain away universal atonement and free will is unbelievable. How about the crazy idea that a person must first be saved to get saved. Along comes Johnny, God zaps him with “regeneration” and then “infused faith into his soul” this will in turn make him believe.”. Sounds like some ball of yarn that a cat got a hold of and tangled up big time. I do believe the horse is supposed to bull the cart.

Lets see how this works from your free-will side. If God foreknow Johnny will be saved, and this is based on what God saw as He looked down though time, how is it that Johnny "might" be saved? Does this not mean that Johnny MUST be saved? If God made Johnny to be saved and this be part of Gods plan now, could Johnny say no thanks?

 

[Amy.G]

So Christ died only for believing Jews Amy ? No . He laid His life down for His sheep scattered among all -- both the Jews and the Gentiles . Christ died for the Church -- He purchased her with His blood . The Church is universal in scope -- the elect from among all the nations .

No, of course Jesus didn't die for the Jews only. Matt 1:21 is referring to the OT prophecy of Isaiah 7:14. The Jews were looking for the Messiah to save them from their sins. The phrase "His people" is referring to the Jews who were expecting the Messiah. Here's another verse:
John 1:11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
Who do you think His own refers to here? The elect? Those chosen by God for salvation? If so, how could they "not receive" Him?
Jesus ministry was to the Jews. They rejected Him. He then, through Paul took the gospel to the Gentiles.

 

[whatever]

. . . Jesus ministry was to the Jews. They rejected Him. He then, through Paul took the gospel to the Gentiles.

I've not read the whole thread, and I am not likely to, but just a quick note here - salvation was always intended to be broader than Jews alone. The promise to Abraham was for all nations, as was reiterated by Peter at Pentecost ("those who are far off"). The visit of the Magi also testifies to this. Why else would Gentiles come to worship the king of the Jews? This was a mystery not fully revealed until Paul's ministry but it was always the plan.

 

[GordonSlocum]

Lets see how this works from your free-will side. If God foreknow Johnny will be saved, and this is based on what God saw as He looked down though time, how is it that Johnny "might" be saved? Does this not mean that Johnny MUST be saved? If God made Johnny to be saved and this be part of Gods plan now, could Johnny say no thanks?

The "might" is like any statement that places the decision in the now. Might implies at the very time it is necessary a decision is made but that it can change at any time with the limits of the individual within time and space, assuming the individual is still alive. God sees the real or actual decision of all "mights". However, because we might or might not does not nullified God or limith God. God has Absolute knowledge (we call it foreknowledge, foresight, prescience). This "might" is a firm point that man has free will. Having free will does not negate God's sovereignty, or sovereign plan. We are permitted to decide and all decision include "might". Every day you are faced with decision and all of your decisions are "mights" until they are actual. God knows the mights, and the possibilities of what might have been that did not happen and what did happen and all the results of the decision.

God’s Absolute Knowledge of your “mights” is sure. We live in the time space continuum, not God. God already knows all the possibilities of all the mights, all the actual real decisions, and all the possibilities of the decisions we did not make.

For all non-Calvinist the term "might" is perhaps one of the strongest arguments against Calvinism. It acknowledges free will and honors God's Holiness. God's plan includes our free will and free will means that before we make a decision regardless of what it is - it is a "might" before it is. "Might" tells us there is at least two options. God knows all the options of all "mights" in all circumstances, in all times, in every individual that existed, is existing, and will exist. God’s Absolute Knowledge is Sure. God makes definitive statements based upon His Absolute Knowledge which is called foreknowledge, foresight, prescience. God knows for sure that you believed and in Eternity Past as we call it we are Elected, or appointed to eternal live. For us we still have to freely believe in time and space. Our coming to salvation is already known by God, because He has absolute knowledge and can make a statement like Acts 13 makes or any other statement concerning Election. If God can not do this then we can not believe any prophetic statement in Scripture.

Our freedom is not a violation of God's Sovereignty. It is the opposite. Our freedom permitted and designed by God is seen by God's Absolute Knowledge and this Absolute knowledge of God's Sovereign Plan establishes His Sovereignty, it validates God's Absoluteness and Perfect knowledge. Only God has this and is capable of doing what He does. We are Elect in Christ before the foundation of the world and this is based upon God's Absolute knowledge and is not a violation of God, God's will, God's Sovereignty, and Up holds God's Holiness. Just because we might make a decision to do whatever it is we decide to do does not negate God's Sovereignty, Absolute Knowledge, or any prophetic statement in the Bible. It can not be any other way. That is Absolute.

 

[Amy.G]

I've not read the whole thread, and I am not likely to, but just a quick note here - salvation was always intended to be broader than Jews alone. The promise to Abraham was for all nations, as was reiterated by Peter at Pentecost ("those who are far off"). The visit of the Magi also testifies to this. Why else would Gentiles come to worship the king of the Jews? This was a mystery not fully revealed until Paul's ministry but it was always the plan.

I agree and never implied that salvation was only offered to the Jews. I was saying that the specific verses of Matt 1:21 and John 1:11 were referring to Jews.

 

[whatever]

I agree and never implied that salvation was only offered to the Jews. I was saying that in the verses Matt 1:21 and John 1:11 were referring to Jews.

When you said "He then, through Paul took the gospel to the Gentiles" I took that to mean it was sort-of a "Plan B". There are those who believe that. I am glad to know that you are not one of them.

 

[Amy.G]

When you said "He then, through Paul took the gospel to the Gentiles" I took that to mean it was sort-of a "Plan B". There are those who believe that. I am glad to know that you are not one of them.

No I'm not. God's plan existed before time. All of it. :1_grouphug:

 

[John I Morris]

Guys and gals, when the Word of God says, for the world, why do we think that He did not mean "world?" I still do not get that, what He says He means. Calvin was nothing but a man with an opinion, as are we all.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Guys and gals, when the Word of God says, for the world, why do we think that He did not mean "world?" I still do not get that, what He says He means. Calvin was nothing but a man with an opinion, as are we all.

Yeah... like when He says the word "hate", does He mean hate? Does God love the whole world? Psalms 5: 5. The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity.

I suppose you will say hate does not mean hate here?

 

[psalms109:31]

Deceive

See how the devil deceives the whole world.

See when we trust in Jesus we are no longer apart of this world. We are strangers in a strange world.

Yes the world hates will hate us, but the hope we have they can have, just like God loved the whole world that He sent His Son. We are messengers of a better hope than arminian, calvin , and any man that preaches against the hope we have in Jesus. That hope is we draw near to God through Jesus Christ, now matter if the world says you can't, you can.