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Did Christ died for all men or just some men?
- Thread starter MB
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Jarthur001
Active Member
Allan,Allan said:
I guess I have linked you to others that claim election is based on God looking down in time and seeing people believe and then elects based on what He sees. Just as you have stated "foreknowing" does not mean this at all. So tell me how do you understand election.
Also..SOME of the Cain links are below. There were about 3 other reminders also. Not sure how this keeps getting overlooked.
CAIN... I post these only because you had asked. I'm not saying you dodged it.
Also...this link...Not sure if you saw it.
In Christ....James
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Brother Bob
New Member
Jauthor:
Do you agree or disagree that man knows good and evil because of what Adam did in the garden?
Do you agree or disagree that man knows good and evil because of what Adam did in the garden?
GordonSlocum
New Member
Jarthur001 said:Allan,
I guess I have linked you to others that claim election is based on God looking down in time and seeing people believe and then elects based on what He sees. Just as you have stated "foreknowing" does not mean this at all. So tell me how do you understand election.
Also..SOME of the Cain links are below. There were about 3 other reminders also. Not sure how this keeps getting overlooked.
CAIN... I post these only because you had asked. I'm not saying you dodged it.
Also...this link...Not sure if you saw it.
In Christ....James
Allen,
Interesting: I too would like to know if not a Calvinist and don't believe Foreknowledge of faith in Christ is it either - ???????
reformedbeliever
New Member
GordonSlocum said:
Make that three of us........lol I'm pretty sure that Allan knows that foreknowledge is more than prescience. Actually i'm certain.... as we have been over this in the "Do we really have free choice" thread in General Discussions. He understands it as an intimate knowledge. I would still like to know just how he view election if it is not due to God's foreknowing what men would do... as in affirmative choice.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Brother Bob said:
Bob,
I think there is built in all men a sense of good and evil. There are many verses that give us this idea. We as believers have a different list then that of the world, but even the world has this idea in them. This is clear, not by how man was made, but rather what happened in the fall. The name of the tree tells the story.
There is also built in all men a sense that good should be rewarded and bad punished. Again, the list of what is good and what is bad may be different, but still it is there. If you saw the movie the “Godfather” years ago, I thought it was well worded when one guy was told to kill someone, but make sure he didn’t kill them on Sunday. I thought that kinda gave a picture of mankind. Man wants to sin, yet they want to do it in respect. You also see this when Hollywood shows up to help give a few dollars to the poor. In their mind, this makes up for a month of sinning.
In Christ....James
PreachTREE
New Member
Brother Bob said:
Man would have attained the knowledge of good and evil without eating the fruit. Adam and Eve just jumped the gun.
PreachTREE
New Member
I believe that God would have blessed man with the knowledge of good and evil by avoiding eating the fruit; he would have been confirmed in his holiness. Impeccability would have been our state.
All speculation. But who cares, we have inherited a sinful nature. We need Christ! :thumbs:
All speculation. But who cares, we have inherited a sinful nature. We need Christ! :thumbs:
Jarthur001
Active Member
PreachTREE said:
Hello PreachTree,
I would agree that we can only place conjecture on this, but it is my theory that knowledge of good and evil would never have been given to man but by sin. I do not view “knowledge of good and evil” as a blessing. I wish I had no knowledge of sin, just as Adam before the fall. One of the glories of Heaven is that we will no longer have our sin nature, and we will be controlled fully by the Spirit Of Truth, with no temptation from the Evil One.
Just from the whatever its worth department…
In Christ...James
Brother Bob
New Member
James;
If man has knowledge of good and evil and "good" is only of God then do all men have some kind of knowledge of God?
If man has knowledge of good and evil and "good" is only of God then do all men have some kind of knowledge of God?
Jarthur001
Active Member
Bob,Brother Bob said:
I believe this was what Pelagius claimed. He said only Adam was effected because of the fall in a negative way. Pelagius said there is a little good in all of us, and one needs only be exposed to good and the goodness will come out. Saying...men understand that good is better then evil, and if they see God, they will chose the good in God over the evil of sin. Or something like that. And this is when the debate started.
I think Pelagius plays down the power of sin in mans life. No matter how much we try, we sin. I understand you Bob have two types of wrong doing. Mistakes and sin. Most, however see mistakes as sin as well. I know you didn't want to get into this part, but I saw no other way around it.
Of course I side with Augustine and the Reformers, where men may even know of what sin is, but think they will deal with it later, or think their good deeds make up for or for some reason love sins more then they love the good in God.
I think if you ask most anyone (other then Devil worshippers) if God is good, they will say yes. I also believe a high % believe there is a real God. But they are not willing to give up the world of sins in which Christ came to save us from. They see God as good, but they see sins in a better light. Or..they see sins as.."Gooder"
This is what I feel Pelagius failed to see.PreachTREE
New Member
Jarthur001 said:
Did Christ not have the knowledge of good and evil? Perfect humanity was represented in him; he knew what sin was and refused to partake in it. I believe that would have been our state if Adam and Eve did not sin; a perfect human.
Brother Bob
New Member
Well, James;
I think they are both sin, just one is sin unto death and the other is not, such as evil thoughts etc.
I have to tell you my personal story. I believed there was a God and before I died I would turn to Him but for a while longer I wanted to enjoy the pleasures of sin. That don't sound like Pelagius to me but could be I suppose, Didn't Augustine believe in "infant" baptism? I think I just loved darkness rather than light even though I knew both. Everytime I did wrong, I knew it. Something inside of me taught me so. I don't think I seen sin in a better light, it was just I didn't want to give it up yet. I thought for sure when I grew old, then I could repent. It didn't work out that way when I fell off a ladder with a massive heart attack. I appreciate your answers though for both ways know there is good. You and I talked before about "good" and that was God. I agree that good only comes from God.
I think they are both sin, just one is sin unto death and the other is not, such as evil thoughts etc.
I have to tell you my personal story. I believed there was a God and before I died I would turn to Him but for a while longer I wanted to enjoy the pleasures of sin. That don't sound like Pelagius to me but could be I suppose, Didn't Augustine believe in "infant" baptism? I think I just loved darkness rather than light even though I knew both. Everytime I did wrong, I knew it. Something inside of me taught me so. I don't think I seen sin in a better light, it was just I didn't want to give it up yet. I thought for sure when I grew old, then I could repent. It didn't work out that way when I fell off a ladder with a massive heart attack. I appreciate your answers though for both ways know there is good. You and I talked before about "good" and that was God. I agree that good only comes from God.
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I can say that this is a very good statement. There are those who let their system deflect their obligation under Christ's command to preach the gospel to every creature. I have seen this believe it or not on both sides of this theological debate. And in my opinion, no matter what side your on, if your system causes you to stop caring about people & preaching the gospel. Your system has a big problem.GordonSlocum said:
I to had the same mind set, but in a different way I guess, mainly because I was raised in church. But, I believe that the right decision to believe (trust) Christ came from the drawing power of the Holy Ghost as I believe you do as well Bro. Bob. If I had been left to my self, I would have procrastinated my way straight to hell. As I believe every one of us (believers) would have. The decision to trust him could not have been possible with out the Spirit of God.Brother Bob said:
Brother Bob
New Member
I agree that Spirit is striving with man to believe.
Jarthur001
Active Member
PreachTree.PreachTREE said:
Christ indeed did know of sin. I fully believe in the hypostatic union. Yet Christ did not have a sin nature. This was another point of the virgin brith.
One does not have to know of sin to be perfect....or this is how I see it. I still do not view knowing about sin a blessing. But then again...I have a sin nature.
In Christ...James