Did Christ died for all men or just some men?

Hello Gordon,

Thanks for your reply. I would have to agree with othes, that it is good to see at least a good argument from your side of theology. I also see a few more things that needs to be addressed. I will write on that now, but I wanted to post this short note to see if I can get a reply to Cain and Gods goal to save mankind. If you do not have a reply, maybe someone else would like to address it. I will repost so that you will not have to look it up again.

Thanks...I'll be back in a few.


In Christ...James

ADDED...

BTW...I keep asking this, for it is the OP.

 

The interesting thing for me is that born again people have genuine differences about how they process and perceive truth.

An old gent that I never met, ( I was young at the time) who was a Calvinist to my knowledge, made a statement that has remained with me for over 40 years. Paraphrase, regardless of the side one takes only a certain number will be saved. In the end it will not matter who was right on this earth. His name was Roy L. Aldrich

The Calvinist I respect are those who's love compels them to spread the gospel to save the elect / lost. We process it differently but in the end only a know number to God will ultimately be saved.

 

Right on all counts. And every one of us, Calvinist, non-C, Arminian, Pelagian, semi-Pelagian, all of us will give glory to the Lamb for his mercy toward us, the undeserving.

 

We are on two separate pages. God can make the plan any way He wants. You and I both have no control over that. If God can't plan a plan where by man has free will then at that point we have a God with out Absolute Knowledge and Power. I don't see your reasoning.

I see myself as very simple. So I say this, God having absolute knowledge and power to implement all He wills is not restricted but only by His Holiness. Now, to tell God He can not plan a plan that permits man to have free will and to tell God He can not plan a plan based upon his Absolute knowledge, of which He and He only posses, is not a path I would venture.

The issue of desiring all to be saved would be a problem if election were not based upon foreknowledge of man's faith in Christ.

I really don't understand why you don't understand my thinking. You don't have to agree, but for some reason I feel you miss my point of understanding.

The one big thing that I would think all would accept is that God has Absolute Knowledge and because of it He can plan a plan any way He decides as long as it does not violate His Holiness.

I see God's Holiness being violated if we fore election on men whereby God is the one making the person believe. This in my thinking is what contradicts Peters statement.

But as said before to me Election is sure and is settled in Eternity but on the basis of Foreknowledge. The Bible clearly states Election is based on foreknowledge. Everything God knows about us is personal including our decisions. Why? We are created in His image. A loving God seeking to save a lost sinner who is created in His image and of which a lost soul believes is very personal. It is an act and a very personal act. I don't separate the issue of intimacy from the decision to believe. It is the most intimate personal relational decision and work of God one could ponder. So when you raise the issue of foreknowledge being a relational issue as a counter to my view I am scratching my head. That is to me no issue. God intimately loved me form Eternity. It does not matter who is right (I am) for God to save me is the most wonderful gracious personal thing a humble child of God can declare. It brings tears to my eyes thinking about it. Oh! How he loves me and you. Before I was saved and after I am saved. What boundless love. That is personal. Foreknowledge is so very personal because it is possible and real and accepts my belief in Christ. All that took place before the plan was planned because God knew the plan before He even planned it. I don’t understand it but I accept it.

God loves even those who will not believe that to is intimate. It is personal and loving and caring.

Consider this: God so loved the world - all sinner - that He gave His son. All the sinners are lost separated form God. God is getting very personal with the lost.

I don't see "world" referring to the "Calvinist definition of Elect" I see the elect as the saved ones out of the world which are elect according to foreknowledge, which is God's absolute knowledge in Eternity past. Remember Foreknowledge does not exist where there is no time and space continuum. It is impossible. So Absolute Knowledge is how it is described and we call it foreknowledge / foresight because our environment is of such. That excites me to no end.

 

I don't know anything about a time contuum. I actually agree with the idea that foreknowledge is related to God's "plan". "Known unto God are His works from the creation..." If we relate foreknowledge, as Peter uses it, to God's activity of designing the world as the Great Architect, we can see a logical pattern in Peter:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge (grand design) of the Father, through the sanctification of the Spirit (the marking out of the objects of His design), unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Christ...(the accomplishment of His plan) -- So God not only "plans", he also executes his plan.

People are willing to have God see something, and plan something, but they are not willing to have God cause something.

Election and predestination speaks to causation.

"and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the LORD."

"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts:"

 

Not sure why Cain keeps getting overlooked. Maybe God did not plan to save all mankind after all and this is why noone will reply. Now that we have finished that part lets move on.

You said....

The foreseeing and Gods plan to save mankind is not mixing for me. If God foresaw Paul believe and then does all that he does to save Paul, this makes grace even more limited. Why?

Think of it. Paul is going to be saved. God knews this because God foresaw it. Now in the plan of God why put all the time into one man that will be saved and leave the rest alone? If it is Gods goal to save all mankind, why not blind all of them and bring them to the point of hell, sinners in the hands of a anger God type of thing, Only this time not have a man preach it, but really pick the man up and hang him over the edge of hell and ask him if he believes. Would not a plan made my God to go after those who do not believe make God more just if in fact His goal was to save all of mankind? In freewillism, does not God give all people the same chance? Pauls will to kill believers was place on hold as God blinded him and made him believe. Why not to others?

Maybe you still do not see that you limit God by giving man full free will. At some point one will control the other. And to claim God wants to save all mankind, yet He only reaches out to touch those that will believe, places God powerless. Yet we know He can do it. If mans will has more power, it will control God. Yet what we find in the Bible is God stepping in and taking control.

We see in this passage that God foresaw a sin coming. Yet God intervened in mans free liberty and compled him not to sin.

Gods Word proves, that it is not impossible for God to exert His power upon man and indeed influences Him to change. Here is a case where God did exert His power, restrict man’s freedom, and prevent him from doing that which he otherwise would have done. Now it was not a strong pull, yet it is more then some will see or hear.


Could God prevented Adam’s fall? Could God have stepped in to say to Adam, Satan is about to try something, do not believe Satan? I say yes God could have. God did prevent certain of His creatures from sinning both against Himself and against His people. We see this in the verse above. If God could "withhold" Abimelech from sinning against Him, then why was He unable to do the same with Adam. God could have indeed, but why did not God do so? Why did not God "withhold" Satan from falling?

The case of Abimelech proves God can step in and stop a sin. Why did God place in the garden the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, when He foresaw that man would disobey His prohibition and eat of it? Adam was made know he would fall, and God placed the tree in the garden.

Balak the Moabite The story can be found in numbers chapter 22-24. I will not post each verse, but please read the whole story on your own to check my post.

Numbers 22.

Again we see God stepped in and intervened in mans free liberty. Yet this does not happen all the time.

What you have placed forth is nothing short of Hyper-Calvinism. God is in control, but is also controled by what He sees. In your story God is powerless and cannot change man at all. God is forced to make man and let him go to hell, for this is what God saw.

ADDED..
What you have made God is only a factory maker with a blueprint on HOW to make Paul. "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? "

ADDED2....
I forgot to bold verse 37. I just did. Please notice this in verse 37.."am I not able indeed" Not able...God stopped it.


In Christ..James

 

Hello Gordon,

Indeed foreknowing is very personal. You maybe the 1st freewiller I have seen say this. Foreknowledge is not just knowing before hand, it is knowing in a personal way, from before the world was made.

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

This could not apply to just knowing before hand, for God knows all things of all people. So if this meant knowing before hand, it means all people are predestined to be saved. This is showing God loves us. So when the statement is said..."For those God foreknew"...this is only part of the people...and it is talking about a love relationship. This is why you could nearly replace the word "foreknew" with love.

I love food. I hate peas. Both statements are true. God loves the world. God loves only the elect. Both statements are true.

This is the old NOW idea. Time is tied to matter. Man is matter. If God touches matter, God touches time.

Therefore when God says before....God was not tricking us. God really meant before. When God say 3 days....God means 3 days, for he is talking to man. When God said I made the world in 6 days....God meant He made the world in six days for God was talking to man.

In short...God is not tied to time. But when God works with man, God is placed in time for man is matter.


In Christ...James

 

There can be no Matter when nothing is yet created James.
When God KNEW - He was not touching matter as matter was not yet formed. And since Matter was not yet formed that also establishes that Time was yet established. So What God KNEW is outside the construct of Matter and Time but seen within that construct He WILL create.

 

Indeed you are right Allan,

The NOW is forever still does not hold, for Adam was matter.

Time is only a spin of the earth or rotation of the earth around the Sun. We did have to have a earth to have time. Once earth was made, time was. Once time came about, time was used by God..for God made it. This is why in the book of Rev. time is cast away, for we then have new matter. Doing the "time" that this earth spins, all matter that is placed on this earth is locked into time. If God saved Paul, God touched TIME.

God is the only that is timeless. Yet God also works in time.

 

**grin**

But if election was done before creation then salvation was set towards those who WILL be 'before' time IS.

 

The passage in Acts 13 to me does not leave any room to specifically suggest at least the appointed to eternal life was in time and space first.

(1) I think all believers would agree that a real saved person is appointed to eternal life.

(2) In God's plan this "appointing to eternal life" existed as part of the plan before creation. It exist out of God's Grace which is His demonstration of the Death Burial and Resurrection of Christ from the foundation of the world - in short before Creation and before sin and before belief for redemption from sin, also in the plan on the basis of Foreknowledge / foresight, the appointing was there too.

(3) In the mind of God, as I see it, the establishment of the plan on the basis of Absolute Knowledge appoints man to eternal life on the basis of His Absolute Knowledge by which He know you will believe. The Security of salvation, Election, Appointment (all the same to me) is as solid as God Himself. The kicker of some is they can't reconcile that while it is settled in Heaven it is only on the basis that God is Absolutely perfect and true to His plan. We still have to make the free choice to receive Christ. The Believing one will believe not because they are forced to and don't have a choice but form eternity and God's foreknowledge / foresight (our side of the fence ) God saw it and settled it in the plan, We Are In Christ. Christ is from the foundation of the World.

If that don't make you shout for joy and humble our heart in the presence of our Most Wonderful Gracious Loving God I don't know what will. I just want to grab God and hug Him forever. He is my rock. The truth of this matter is He is always hugging me and I just love it to no end. That security is awesome. It should motivate us to witness and share the gospel and support missions with zeal and eagerness.

You see we don't know who the dear souls are that are form eternity appointed to eternal life. In time and space they have not made the decision yet. Our love for God should drive us out to witness and do all we can that is of good report to win the lost. Everyone can be saved and only the Elect are saved.

It is a hard saying but if everyone wants to be right like me just accept it. Go back to your local church and continue to but on Christ and live for Him. Get your church involved in missions big time. Have those revivals / Bible conferences / debates by apologist on college campuses / camps for kids, teens, adults and more. Get involved in the community and draw attention to your local body of Christ. Where was it that God told Paul "I have many in this city" You see God's knows already all that will believe and they are already appointed to eternal life from the stand point of eternity and God's absolute knowledge which we call foreknowledge / foresight.

That should settle it. Answer the question on the test the way I ask for it and you will pass. Don't laugh, you know that is how it is.

If you are a teacher / prof you know what I mean. All who have been students understand too.

When I think about all the trying to figure out God, Man, Sin, Salvation etc. These few words are in one sense all that is needed

God is Absolutely Holy and has Absolute Knowledge, Power and Will. Whatever He wants He Gets. Aren’t you glad you are not in charge. Aren’t you glad He gave you free will. Aren’t you glad, in time and space, you have a choice.

The End.

 

indeed. And with your statement I rest my case.

People try to paint words that deal with time found in the Bible like.."foreknow" as if we can not tell when it happened....because God is outside of time. But God is both in time and outside. "Fore"...means it has happened in the past. It did not happen NOW. This is how God wrote it, and this is what God meant...and BTW..this is what God did.

Off to do some shopping...

In Christ....James

 

Of course James! He KNEW 'then' exactly who WOULD 'now'.
I have always stated this.
And yes decreed this should be so. (or wrote it)

:godisgood: :thumbs:

 

Are you writing this for my benifit or others??
Just in case you didn't know - I'm not a Calvinist.

 

James, You and I have gone over this in the "Robots in Heaven" thread and it still wont fly any better here than it did there. Balek was a man of God who did what God said because he had already submitted himself TO God.

You hold that Abimalech 'lusted' to sin and THAT is what God withheld - that lust. But in our discussion I showed you that was not the case as Abimelech did not 'lust' to sin against God. They still are poor arguments brother.

I haven't seen your Cain arguement - what was it??

Besides we never did get to finish our conversation back then :smilewinkgrin:

 

Allan,


One thing I will agree with, the robot in heaven thread was a great thread. The other statements, may live only in your dreams. But being that we both wanted to pick this up and again, and being also we find this cross roads infront of us, what you say lets go for it?

You must also remember, you were new on this board at the time of the robots, and so I was a bit easy on you. (Time Of The Robots...sounds like a movie)

So here we go......Lets see how well you did.
1)

1st...that number is huge.
2nd..I'm not doing your home work for you. It is already posted 3-4 times on this thread.

2)

1st..that number is a better size.
2nd..Balak had in mind to SIN. God stepped in to stop it.
3rd...The story if you read it is really over Balaam. Balak wanted Balaam to curse the people. This was Balak's sin. Now this would be the real story.
4...Balaam, who God stopped, was NOT a man of God in any way sharp of form.
5..God can and does step in to stop mans so called "free will".
6...God does not always stop man from sinning.

I think that about closes the case. Don't you?

ADDED LATER >> Please show me why you say this..."Balak was a man of God"

3)

Below you will find the passage.....

After reading it it seems clear to me that Abimelech planned on sinning and God stepped in and stopped it. Please show me again why you do not think this happened. If you can not show me, then we will have to go with what the Bible say. God does indeed step in to limit mans will. But God does not do this each time. But maybe I should wait and see what you have to say.


In Christ...James

 

Lol....... that is funny Allan. We might better let our minds rest huh? :thumbsup:

 

Are you sure brother? lol You are one of our best appologist.

 

YES. Christ died for all people.

2 John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD."

This verse tells us, Christ died for our sisn, but, NOT just for ours(already repented) only, also, Christ died for the SINS of the WHOLE WORLD.

Because God shows of his love toward us, that He sent His Son to cross and died for our sins.

2 Peter 3:9 tells us, God's will, that He does not want all go to hell, but he wants ALL come to repentance. This is His love! Sadly, most of them are end up in hell, because they refuse to repent of their sins.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Brother Allan..I fear you are still missing the point. I meant to post this earlier, but forgot.

Knowing as used in the Bible is so much more then you seem to want to admit.

Knowing is very personal. It is not based on knowing before hand. You miss the real meaning when you lower it to that meaning. “Knowing” is used with understanding of a loving experience. God is saying knows some (the elect) and He does NOT know the non-believer. This is very clear from the Bible, not just here, but other places.



In Christ....James