Hello GordonSlocum,
Thanks again for your reply.
It looks as if it is
me that is
not expressing myself in a way that you understand
my concerns. I will be very open with this post and see if I may do better.
I do not see a race of people before Adam and Eve. Cane was given a chance to repent. Genesis 4:6. Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7. "If you do well, will not {your countenance} be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."
Here we see that Cane had the opportunity to turn for his sin and do well. God foresaw Cain’s total life before he was born. Cain was totally free to do well, but did not and God knew this before He plan the plan because He has Absolute Perfect complete knowledge / of which we refer to as foresight or foreknowledge.
I agree that God gave Cain a chance to believe. Cain however, did not understand his need for salvation, and in short order said no thanks. But this is not what I asked about Cain.
You said that it was Gods goal to save all of mankind. Cain was the 1st non-believer born. If it was in fact Gods goal to save all of mankind, God could have met that goal by giving full salvation from sin and this life before Cain was made into a life. This is the only time in the history of the world that all of mankind could have been saved.
According to the CIA World Factbook, as of July, 2005, there were approximately 6,446,131,400 people on the planet, and the death rate was approximately 8.78 deaths per 1,000 people a year. According to our nifty desktop calculator, that works out to roughly 56,597,034 people leaving us every year. That's about a 155,000 a day.
Now most people do not believe the vast part of mankind will be saved. In fact most claim the number is rather low, being 10% or less. This would leave 90% of the people going to hell. In this case, lets make the number not that bad. Lets just say 50% go to hell.
This would place our numbers at 77,500 people leaving this world each year on their way to hell.
Each day that Christ does not come back more people go to Hell. From the start of reading this post, to the time you are done, over 100 more people have died and are now on there way to hell.
The longer God waits the more people go to hell. This would cause one to ask, what is God waiting on, if in fact the gaol was to save all of mankind.
So again let me ask you.
1) If God foresaw Cain would not believe and with that, God wanted to save all of mankind, why did God not bring full salvation from sin and this life before Cain was born? If God had done this, God would have met that goal.
2) Being that even at a low %, at 50%, there are 77,500 people dieing each year and on their way to Hell, what is God waiting on?
I just want to add, that I think Gods plan is working, and He will come right in time, at the moment God had planned all along.
I really don't understand why you don't understand me. But I will try again. A plan can not exist unless there is a planner that has intelligence and in this case God who not only has intelligence but has perfect absolute knowledge of all future actual events and potential events. In that God designed man in His image and gave him free will within time and space and because God already sees all the decisions we make and all the interventions he will take to carry out his total plan he stops Paul and confronts him. Paul obeys and is saved. To me that is simple. Paul freely believed. God knew he would in eternity before he planed the plan. The decision Paul made was a free decisions.
As pertaining to existence of each life the free acts of procreation are just that. God’s knowledge of these events are not controlling events they are events that are within the real of freedom and the nature process of sex. People freely have sex and kids follow. Because God knows all that will be born does not in any way suggest he controls them or makes them procreate. God’s command to populate the earth is not a robot activity it is a free activity and God knows all that will be born before they are born. He knows if they will receive Him or not. God’s knowledge is perfect.[/
This is where I am headed with this. Free willers want to keep God in control, and yet give man free will. They do this by placing foreknowing at the top and then Gods plan is 2nd. They never want to get rid of Gods plan, for then the world would be nothing but chaos and chance. This part I understand. I'm trying to see where free will works in Gods plan.
Let me put it this way. You said God started with Knowingness.
With this God had a plan. The plan was based on what God forsaw. From this God made.
The order in a list..
God
Foreknew what would happen.
God
planned based on what God knew.
God then
made in order that the action of the plan would come about.
So I guess we need to place Paul aside and visit him later, after we address Gods plan. What do you mean my Gods plan?
1 Samuel 2 shows us a God in control...
5They that were full have hired out themselves for bread; and they that were hungry ceased: so that the barren hath born seven; and she that hath many children is waxed feeble.
6The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.
7The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up.
8He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he hath set the world upon them.
9He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.
10The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them: the LORD shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed.
So we do know that God has a plan and is controls things so that it comes about. Just as the life of Jonah. It seems like God was in full control over sending Jonah to preach.
We see this idea again in 1chronicles 29
11Thine, O LORD is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all.
12Both riches and honour come of thee, and thou reignest over all; and in thine hand is power and might; and in thine hand it is to make great, and to give strength unto all
also 2 chronicles 20
5And Jehoshaphat stood in the congregation of Judah and Jerusalem, in the house of the LORD, before the new court,
6And said, O LORD God of our fathers, art not thou God in heaven? and rulest not thou over all the kingdoms of the heathen? and in thine hand is there not power and might, so that none is able to withstand thee?
also.Job 9
12Behold, he taketh away, who can hinder him? who will say unto him, What doest thou?
John 19:11
11Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin
Colossians 1
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
We could read how God pulls down Gog and Magog. Or how Pharaoh was made by God to withstand Moses, and we have the whole book of Danial, showing God in control with a plan.
So it is clear that God does indeed have a set plan, and works it out. I understand why you use the word in your lineup of order.
So here we go. This is what I need to ask.
"What do you mean by "God planned", after God knew?"
In Christ...James
