Did Christ died for all men or just some men?

Genesis 3

"22": And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Man knows much more than Calvinist give him credit for and that is scripture.

 

I firmly believe that God saves based on his foresight / foreknowledge of the individual. All mention of election in Old and New is predicated on this belief.

Now, the jungle person. On a number of occasions at missions conferences testimony has been given about peoples seeking God who have never heard the gospel. I really can't explain it other than to simply set forth my own person view that because God in all circumstances knows all possibilities that He provides witness to all that would respond to the Gospel. If Bomba Nambe in the darkest part of the jungle were confronted with the gospel would he believe. God knows if he would or not because he knows all things absolutely both actual and potential. So on that basis I believe God will provide a witness to all as in such a case as you raise. This is my personal view.

For me also I firmly believe that the majority of people in our American Churches are not saved. Even where there is division on doctrine a real born again believer can be known by the witness of the spirit between each other. We are not talking about perfect people but the witness of the Spirit of God between believers. It is sweet and real. So just because our churches are running over at the brim does not mean all those people are saved.

Also, I think there are levels of Hell too. People who have the gospel preached to them regularly and do not believe I personally believe will suffer more in hell.

 

God bestows on all mankind common grace. This grace convicts men of their sin but is not sufficient for salvation.

 

I do not see a race of people before Adam and Eve. Cane was given a chance to repent. Genesis 4:6. Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7. "If you do well, will not {your countenance} be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."

Here we see that Cane had the opportunity to turn for his sin and do well. God foresaw Cain’s total life before he was born. Cain was totally free to do well, but did not and God knew this before He plan the plan because He has Absolute Perfect complete knowledge / of which we refer to as foresight or foreknowledge.

I really don't understand why you don't understand me. But I will try again. A plan can not exist unless there is a planner that has intelligence and in this case God who not only has intelligence but has perfect absolute knowledge of all future actual events and potential events. In that God designed man in His image and gave him free will within time and space and because God already sees all the decisions we make and all the interventions he will take to carry out his total plan he stops Paul and confronts him. Paul obeys and is saved. To me that is simple. Paul freely believed. God knew he would in eternity before he planed the plan. The decision Paul made was a free decisions.

As pertaining to existence of each life the free acts of procreation are just that. God’s knowledge of these events are not controlling events they are events that are within the real of freedom and the nature process of sex. People freely have sex and kids follow. Because God knows all that will be born does not in any way suggest he controls them or makes them procreate. God’s command to populate the earth is not a robot activity it is a free activity and God knows all that will be born before they are born. He knows if they will receive Him or not. God’s knowledge is perfect.

 

- Uh- is it just me in my old age, or have I seen this question and argument a bunch of times before on the BB in my year of hanging around this here joint?

Ed

 

Yea, and you already know my answer so I won't post.

 

Yes. Verse 18 is truth, is it not?

 

Read in context brother. Paul is saying that the gospel is not a local gospel (jews only) but one that extends to Gentiles. People die not hearing the Gospel.

 

Interesting concept:
Grace is not suffient for salvation.

Grace - unmerited favor.

So... God bestows favor on man to show them they are sinners but Gods grace falls short of being able to save.

Wow!! Talk about unscriptually based philosophy!!!!

For it is by GRACE you are SAVED, through faith...

Grace is always suffient to save if faith will be placed in that grace that it WOULD save.

 

Read up on the concept of "common grace." You do not need to be a believer to recieve this. Rain, food, clothing, human government, family, restraint of sin, etc. are all examples of common grace. Your unsaved neighbor recieves all these things right? Common grace is sufficient to convict a man of his sin (i.e. law), but man cannot come to salvation by this. The grace that saves is effectual or special grace. This grace comes from God through his word; a specific divine working.

 

There are so many errors being propounded here that I can't keep up . Let me just itemize some thoughts .

In John 12:32 it means ---I will draw all mine to myself .

Obviously the Lord has not drawn all to Himself or all would be saved .There is no such thing as a partial drawing.

The Lord does indeed have a people for Himself . They are the elect from among every nation ,tribe and tongue . He has chosen them and no one else . Other designations are His sheep , His Church , His Bride , His Body and on and on .

God indeed is no respector of persons . He doesn't evaluate on the basis that the world measures . But God does discriminate in the very best sense of the term . Among my English Bible translations the Weymouth is pretty good in this respect .

Ephesians 6:9 ... and that of merely earthly distinctions there are none with him.

Romans 2:11 ... For God pays no attention to this world's distinctions .

Acts 10:34 ... God makes no distinctionsbetween one man and another .

Galatians 2:6 ... God recognizes no external distinctions .

Foeknowledge is not God merely knowing something ahead of time . It is His setting affection upon persons of His choosing . He determined in ages past ( finite terminology but you get the point ) to set His love on them .

Whosoever does not mean anyone -- it means every believer .

For those whose destiny is damnation -- Christ's work on the cross did not affect their status in the least . They are not reconciled -- they did not receive the atonement . Their sins are not covered .

There ,that should do for starters .

 

What he said. :thumbsup:

 

Limited

The power of Christ's blood is not limited. It is powerful enough to save every single person ever born into this world.

People who don't walk through it don't get wet.

 

The scope of His redemption was designed for specific ones , namely the elect .

 

God The Father's Salvific Work

O Father , you are sovereign
In all affairs of man ;
No pow'rs of death or darkness
Can thwart your perfect plan .
All chance and change transcending ,
Supreme in time and space ,
You hold your trusting children
Secure in your embrace .

O Father , you are sovereign !
We see you dimly now ,
But soon before your triumph
Earth's every knee shall bow .
With this glad hope before us
Our faith springs up anew :
Our sovereign Lord and Savior ,
We trust and wordhip you !

Margaret Clarkson , 1982

 

Spirit

1 Corinthians 15:45
So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving Spirit.

I see some miss handling the word of God that they have become messengers of death, insead of messengers of life. It sickens me right down to my inner most being.

 

Hello GordonSlocum,

Thanks again for your reply.
It looks as if it is me that is not expressing myself in a way that you understand my concerns. I will be very open with this post and see if I may do better.

I agree that God gave Cain a chance to believe. Cain however, did not understand his need for salvation, and in short order said no thanks. But this is not what I asked about Cain.

You said that it was Gods goal to save all of mankind. Cain was the 1st non-believer born. If it was in fact Gods goal to save all of mankind, God could have met that goal by giving full salvation from sin and this life before Cain was made into a life. This is the only time in the history of the world that all of mankind could have been saved.

According to the CIA World Factbook, as of July, 2005, there were approximately 6,446,131,400 people on the planet, and the death rate was approximately 8.78 deaths per 1,000 people a year. According to our nifty desktop calculator, that works out to roughly 56,597,034 people leaving us every year. That's about a 155,000 a day.

Now most people do not believe the vast part of mankind will be saved. In fact most claim the number is rather low, being 10% or less. This would leave 90% of the people going to hell. In this case, lets make the number not that bad. Lets just say 50% go to hell. This would place our numbers at 77,500 people leaving this world each year on their way to hell.

Each day that Christ does not come back more people go to Hell. From the start of reading this post, to the time you are done, over 100 more people have died and are now on there way to hell. The longer God waits the more people go to hell. This would cause one to ask, what is God waiting on, if in fact the gaol was to save all of mankind.

So again let me ask you.

1) If God foresaw Cain would not believe and with that, God wanted to save all of mankind, why did God not bring full salvation from sin and this life before Cain was born? If God had done this, God would have met that goal.
2) Being that even at a low %, at 50%, there are 77,500 people dieing each year and on their way to Hell, what is God waiting on?

I just want to add, that I think Gods plan is working, and He will come right in time, at the moment God had planned all along.

This is where I am headed with this. Free willers want to keep God in control, and yet give man free will. They do this by placing foreknowing at the top and then Gods plan is 2nd. They never want to get rid of Gods plan, for then the world would be nothing but chaos and chance. This part I understand. I'm trying to see where free will works in Gods plan.


Let me put it this way. You said God started with Knowingness.
With this God had a plan. The plan was based on what God forsaw. From this God made.

The order in a list..

God Foreknew what would happen.
God planned based on what God knew.
God then made in order that the action of the plan would come about.

So I guess we need to place Paul aside and visit him later, after we address Gods plan. What do you mean my Gods plan?


1 Samuel 2 shows us a God in control...

So we do know that God has a plan and is controls things so that it comes about. Just as the life of Jonah. It seems like God was in full control over sending Jonah to preach.

We see this idea again in 1chronicles 29

also 2 chronicles 20

also.Job 9

John 19:11

Colossians 1

We could read how God pulls down Gog and Magog. Or how Pharaoh was made by God to withstand Moses, and we have the whole book of Danial, showing God in control with a plan.

So it is clear that God does indeed have a set plan, and works it out. I understand why you use the word in your lineup of order.

So here we go. This is what I need to ask.

"What do you mean by "God planned", after God knew?"


In Christ...James

 

Just because He draws does not mean they "come". Just because He said, "come unto me all ye ends of the earth", does not mean they all come. You want to be rigid on draw, but not on all, whomsoever, ends of the earth, world etc., you get rather loose with these words and more. Also, it don't say "mine", but I will draw all MEN unto me.

 

That is a good post. I don't agree but it is a good post. Why? Thanks for asking.

You state your case short and to the point. No guess work on where you stand and how you see things.

 

Merriam Webster - draw = to bring by inducement or allure

Just because He draws them doesn't mean they will come.

.

So you would re-write that verse to read - For God so loved some, He gave His only begotten Son, that believers that believe on Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Is that right?