Did Christ died for all men or just some men?

[psalms109:31]

Depraved

There is nothing good in me that is in my flesh.

We still have a concience a soul that wants to do good but the flesh is right there with it waging war. Who can save me from this body of death, praise be to Jesus.

Through the words of Jesus the Holy Spirit is right outside the door of every man knocking asking them to let Him in.

We have to open up to let Him in. He does not force His way in but gives ua a clear choice to believe in Him and be saved or not and be condemned.

God has not inclined our hearts to believe but set before us life and death , so choose Jesus and live.

God is not stopping any of you from opening the door unless you are listening to the lies of men saying you can't open the door,

Goats are men leading sheep into a pit of thier own destruction, you don't have to follow them, you can believe.

They are not His sheep because of unbelief, for Jesus says if you disown me before men I will disown you before my Father in heaven.

God is not rejecting any of you, if you do not enter it is your own fault.

 

[GordonSlocum]

Where would you place predestination/election in this process?

Part 1.

I know this is long but perhaps it will explain how I arrive at my understanding. In short Electoin is because God saw me believe. That puts Election in time at the time I belive but in God realm I am elect on the bases of His perfect knowledge and thus declared so from eternity past. The proof is that God personally told us Election is based upon foreknowledge. There is no debate on this if one accepts it as is. But they don't so here we are debating.

Could God have done it the Calvinist way? Yes, but only if God can go agains His Holiness. Therefore No. In this case if God did it Calvins way God would cease to be God. Why is that? For God to make a statement that He wills or desires all to be saved and to come to repentence is contrdictory to a plan that picks one and not all. God is not a liar, or confused, or deceptive. God would never make a statement like that if He had first decided to save one and send all others to hell.

Take all the inference and clear statements that God is willing that all be saved out of the Bible and Calvin perhaps could have some ground to stand on. God is not going to tell us one thing and then contridict it later. Even Jesus who is God over and over again says "your faith" "thier faith" "his faith" etc. The over whelming evidance is against the Calvinist view.


God's knowledge is so complete. In other words we think in terms of time and space that is our environment, not God's. God created this environment for us. So when God knows something it is foreknowledge. Each moment or second is called present to us but as soon as is the present it is passing and becomes past. An ever-present Omniscience God has no problem with knowing all real events that will take place and all possible ones that would have been if a decision were different as well as what He would do to make sure His plan is accomplished. Our actions are free but they do not frustrate God’s Sovereign Purposes. God’s plans, purposes, etc include our freedom and all the variables it brings to the table so to speak. God uses our free decisions to accomplish His ultimate purpose for time and space. Our decisions good or bad - for or against are our decisions and even if God gets in the way as He does it all is known to God and apart of His plan. How God plans it is His business. If He want us to have free will and He did - its His for He is God.

My decision is free and does not change the absolute knowledge of God for His knowledge of my actions are certain. The certainty of His knowledge is not that which determined the decision a person makes. God’s knowledge of it is certain and on that basis God predicts and positions and moves and gets involved so to speak of which He knew before He knew it and He even knew that. God is not controlling us as a robot. He is managing us but all within His design to let us be free moral agents. It is only controlling if my decision is contrary to other purposes of His creation. But this too is not a control of my decision. If God wants the US to be defeated in a war and I am president and I have the earthly power to literally defeat the nation I am at war with and I decide to do this then my free actions will be stopped one way or the other by God because it is not in accordance with His over all sovereign will. (a) God certainly knows everything. (b) God’s certainty of my actions are certain but my actions are free and are not force. God’s certainty is not a force that makes me decide this or that. But His certainty is certain because He has perfect knowledge and knows all results completely of any action and the results of His actions as they interplay with ours of which He foreknew. The decision I made as president was free and in this case an a-moral decision because it was not based upon an ungodly basis. The decision may have been a completely moral decision. But a saved person can make a decision that is not in accordance with a purpose of God and God will not permit the willful decision of the saved person to be realized. The decision of the saved person may actually be a moral good decision but in the grand scheme of things is does not serve God’s purpose in a given area - so God in this case will prevent it. This is true of lost people too. Freedom to decide is real but freedom to actually bring about the desired results of the decision may not be possible in the time/space plan of God’s sovereign will when it gets in His way to carry out His overall plan. This overall sovereign will is to be separated and distinguished from the divine sovereign will for salvation in one sense. The both are a part of the big picture. The two are not to be confused as one or the same but are a part of the total. There are different aspects of God's will and all of them are His sovereign will. The different aspects of His will interact and all come together in the end as one complete purpose.

 

[GordonSlocum]

Part 2

Now to salvation. The issue is this. Does God desire all to be saved and is this desire universal or only for a few.

For me it is for all mankind all the time everywhere regardless. So for election to work in this belief system, of which I ascribe to, man must have free will or we might say it this way, man is depraved but is capable of receiving salvation freely. His depravity is not inability. This leads to foreknowledge. We can not deny God's absolute foreknowledge in either system, that is impossible in my thinking. No system limits, stops, changes, alters God's foreknowledge. The issue is not foreknowledge per say in one respect but foreknowledge is the forceful argument for my side of the issue because that is the basis for God electing. My side has the proof in writing and Calvin's side is inferred and forced as I see it. So any passage that states I am predetermined or elect in the past or before creation is on the basis of God's foreknowledge.

(1) In Calvin's view, as I see it, God's foreknowledge still exist all, be it some zealous follower want to argue it away. If God did it Calvin’s way then God would have first picked John and not picked Joe. Both John and Joe are totally depraved in this view and totally unable to believe, even if they hear the message. In this view God has to "regenerate" the soul of this dead John and then infuse Him with a special gift of faith whereby John believes. To come to this conclusion the camp has to infer upon passages of Scripture that do not in any direct way support such a teaching. Addressing this more we come to this conclusion about regeneration as Calvinist see it and that is that it does not exist in Scripture nowhere. But if it were true and it is not then it does not eliminate God's foreknowledge. Whatever God decides to do is known (ever-present to him) foreknown for our understanding to us. Whatever His plan is it is known and to know from God's side include foreknowledge / foresight as we are forced to understand it because we are in time and space and that how we have to understand it. Any attempt to eliminate God's foreknowledge of absolutely every actual and potential everything is to destroy God. Will, Power, Emotion means nothing without God having absolute understanding / knowledge. We simply cannot separate it form God.

So in this view God picked first to save the soul so it would save itself or respond to the picking. This is forced salvation. God is in total control and man has absolutely no choice in the matter other than he is forced to be regenerated. We use the term fore because God, according to Calvin's view, sees man totally unable to respond. Man is a living breathing puppet in the grand scheme of God's puppet world.

(2) My view. God's plan included for man to have free will with in his time and space environment. God's absolute knowledge while totally certain does not dictate man's decisions. Adam was free to decide without in his un-depraved state. He was not a sinner so they could come face to face so to speak and Adam not be consumed. The fall prevented Adam form this intimate relationship. The penalty of this violation was spiritual death and it is call in theological terms "depravity" "dead in trespasses and sins" and we are.

I think the one thing both side can agree upon is we are depraved but event that had its differences Calvin’s total depravity is equated to cessation and my view is simply separation form God but the image of God is still there not eradicated or as in dead to be equated to that of physical death. Man's mind, will, emotions did not cease to be at the fall.

So God's foreknowledge sees His own plan in action. The plan is to have Christ die for my sin. God foresaw this and included it in His plan. I hope that point finds understanding. It is so important that we first step back and see this first. God planned to create and He did. So Adam and Eve are now on the earth but not in sin. God in eternity past declared Christ to come, die, and be raised from the dead for the sin of man. This was before Adam sinned. This is no different form any foreknowledge of God. God's foreknowledge is absolute and because God saw Adam sin before He sinned God provided in His plan the solution. This is exactly what is taking place with the salvation of man. God saw Adam's actions before they took place and God was not surprised by Adam's actions which were free. God was not surprised that He would decide to solve the problem by dying Himself for our sin before time and space but in our realm it was here and notw reality. So all of God's plan is predicated on His foreknowledge. The complete plan is a result of God's foreknowledge. To even infer it is not is to deny God's existence because God is All knowing. All knowingness is what makes God Sovereign. God's all knowingness can not be separated form His power and will and emotion. Any attempt to separate Absolute Knowledge from God is to eliminate God. That can't happen.

Man is free and God made it this way. Man in his sin is free. God comes to man in his sin not man to God. The coming of God to man does not make man want God. What it does is explain to man his condition and leaves the choice to man. God provided the solution because man can not provide his own salvation solution, he has to rely on God's way to save him. What man does is agree with God that he is a sinner and be willing to admit (which he is capable) that he is a sinner and ask God to save Him. Asking God to save from the depraved state is in simple terms is saying to God, you are correct and I agree, I am a sinner. I know I am a sinner. I don’t want to go to hell and I want to go to Heaven and I agree with you that I am a sinner and I ask you to save me as I agree with you God that I am a sinner. God save me I believe you are telling me the truth and I accept it as truth and your provision for my salvation which is Christ. That is not a work but a confession of understanding and reliance upon the only one that can solve the problem. On the other hand a person can say I hear what you are saying God but I don’t believe you. Sin nature does not make a person not believe or believe. Sin nature is a propensity to do evil and does not eradicate the mind from understanding and willing and feeling. The willing her is not to be equated with "not my man's will or might" that is an issue separate from being willing to agree and believe unto salvation. Believing that God can save him is not work or effort or merit. It is simply agreeing with God and receiving His free gift of salvation. When a man or woman does this in their depravity they are saved. Then and only then are they regenerated. Regeneration never comes first. No place in Scripture is such a doctrine explained or taught. It is inferred and forced upon by way of support to shore up other errant view.

My view of foreknowledge see me believe in Christ and in Him I am elect. In the Calvinist view they are elected and then placed in Christ. My Bible does not teach that.

Consider again the work of Christ. God decreed He Himself would die for sin because He foresaw the problem in His absolute knowledge as we call it foreknowledge / foresight. If we argue it differently we destroy God. It is impossible to do it another way in my thinking. Again God created Adam and Eve and they were not depraved. Yet God elected Christ / Himself to die for our sin before Adam sinned. The only reason God can plan a plan like this is on the basis of foreknowledge. If God did not have foreknowledge of willful acts He could not know to incorporate into the plan the solution of the plan.

If I take any other view of it I make the plan of God a machine or robot.

 

[Brother Bob]

Thats a whole lot of writing to say "you must believe first" Gordon, but well said as far as I can tell by a quick read.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello GordonSlocum,

I do not want to mis-understand you here, so i need to ask a few things.

So God's foreknowledge sees His own plan in action. The plan is to have Christ die for my sin. God foresaw this and included it in His plan.

Which came 1st? The plan or seeing the action? Did the plan cause the action, or did the action make the plan?

I hope that point finds understanding. It is so important that we first step back and see this first. God planned to create and He did.

I agree

So Adam and Eve are now on the earth but not in sin. God in eternity past declared Christ to come, die, and be raised from the dead for the sin of man. This was before Adam sinned. This is no different form any foreknowledge of God. God's foreknowledge is absolute and because God saw Adam sin before He sinned God provided in His plan the solution.

Again we see the same thing here. Did God declare this 1st or did God see Adam sin and learn from Adam from this sinning that God must do something to save man, therefore God sent Christ to die.

we have 2 choices here...

God know everything all along and decreed it.
God made Adam, and after He made Adam, God looked down in time and saw Adam falling into sin. So God before Adam sinned decreed Chrsit would come.

When did God know what He knows?

God saw Adam's actions before they took place and God was not surprised by Adam's actions which were free.

I agree that God was not surprised, so when did God know this? Was it before Adam was made, or after Adam was made, God looked and saw Adam fall?

Man is free and God made it this way. Man in his sin is free. God comes to man in his sin not man to God. The coming of God to man does not make man want God.

What is the most powerful controling force you know of? I'll let you pick from two.

1) Gods will.
2) Mans freewill.

Last thing and I'm done for now.

Was it the goal of God to save each and every person of the human race and this is why Christ died for all men?

 

[GordonSlocum]

I am of the belief that God's all knowingness is first

For a plan to be first the knowledge has to be first. I hope that makes sense. Where there is no knowledge or awareness of existence and ability there for sure can not be a plan. So knowledge and foreknowledge has to come first.

If I put the plan first and Knowledge second it will not work. Why? Because a plan can not exist in and of itself with out a creator of it and a designer of it a thinker of it. It has to be conceived first and that conception makes Absolute knowledge or as we call it Foreknowledge first. That is why it is a plan. Someone planned it. God. His capability of planning is different form mine because He has absolute knowledge and can plan in accordance to his absolute knowledge. This He has done.

I can't find any way around this "fact". Think about it - here you are at a given point in time. You have the ability to think. But a thought enters your mind to plan something so you do. Now consider this. You are existing but you don't have a mind to think. How then can a plan exist apart for your inability to think? We both know it can’t. It is not any different with God for we are created in His image.

When Calvinism can demonstrate that this is not so they may have a case, but as you can see my logic is solid. Who will argue against what I have just said? I doubt anyone. I don’t say what I am going to say to be mean. But, for anyone to contradict what I have just said is in total denial of reality and truth. I love everyone.

That is why all the philosophical arguments are useless because it is completely circular and the reason we know this is because of the very fact of this topic.

I am playing God here. I exist, I have all power, knowledge etc. I now counsel with the Son and The Spirit. We decide to plan whatever it is we decide to plan. Even God tells us this.

I agree that God was not surprised, so when did God know this? Was it before Adam was made, or after Adam was made, God looked and saw Adam fall?

If God has absolute knowledge and He does He always knows everything in advance perfectly and He knows all possibilities too. This qualifies God to plan in accordance to his perfect knowledge which we call foreknowledge / foresight. God not only new Adam would sin but He knows your every thought, act, etc now and forever more. God always knows all before it is. This should not even be an issue with anyone. Foreknowledge is absolutely so. God has Absolute Knowledge.

Quote:
What is the most powerful controlling force you know of? I'll let you pick from two.

1) Gods will.
2) Mans freewill.

For me this does not address the issue. By picking one or two will not prove anything.

Agreeing with 1 has no bearing on the topic. God is always more powerful. God gave man his free will. No one will dispute God's power over man. But the issue is not His power it is his plan. One could ask a question that is more relevant such as

Does God's plan allow for free will in such a way that man in his sin state can respond to God

or

Does God's plan not ........."

That is a legitimate set of questions for the topic, but God's power only operates second to his will and the knowledge to plan and the carrying out of it. Take knowledge away and power means nothing. Knowledge is the greater of the two. You can take power away and Knowledge can't work too but knowledge is the heart and soul of a plan. We have to be thankful that God also has the power to implement it. So the Plan is the issue not His power but power is necessary to bring it to past. At stick of expolisive needing a match to set it in motion is worthelss without the knowledge and power of the one capable of thinks to do it and then doing it. You have to know to do before it can be done. How can one do what they don't know to do? They can't

Was it the goal of God to save each and every person of the human race and this is why Christ died for all men?

Yes this is exactly what Scripture teaches in a host of places. Herein is another striking difference between Calvinism and my view which is not Arminian although that view disagrees too and is closer to mine. In my view Christ died for all and all can be saved. All will not be saved because all will not believe. All mankind's sin is forgiven but man must accept the forgiveness and believe. If man does not accept forgiveness according to the Scripture they then die in their sin.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello GordonSlocum,

Thanks for your reply. I would like to address this a bit more.

You said below, that knowingness is first before all other things.

I am of the belief that God's all knowingness is first

For a plan to be first the knowledge has to be first. I hope that makes sense. Where there is no knowledge or awareness of existence and ability there for sure can not be a plan. So knowledge and foreknowledge has to come first.

If I put the plan first and Knowledge second it will not work. Why? Because a plan can not exist in and of itself with out a creator of it and a designer of it a thinker of it. It has to be conceived first and that conception makes Absolute knowledge or as we call it Foreknowledge first. That is why it is a plan. Someone planned it. God. His capability of planning is different form mine because He has absolute knowledge and can plan in accordance to his absolute knowledge. This He has done.


If God has absolute knowledge and He does He always knows everything in advance perfectly and He knows all possibilities too. This qualifies God to plan in accordance to his perfect knowledge which we call foreknowledge / foresight. God not only new Adam would sin but He knows your every thought, act, etc now and forever more. God always knows all before it is. This should not even be an issue with anyone. Foreknowledge is absolutely so. God has Absolute Knowledge.

Based on this Gods plan comes about. Lets take 2 cases. It is clear to see based on what you have just said, that God foresaw Pauls believeing. God looked down in time and saw, that if God would blind Paul and speak to him from Heaven, and tell Paul to go see a man in a City, That Paul in turn would believe. Therefore God made Paul just as he was with wisdom and placed Paul on the road, and blinded Paul and then with a voice from heaven talked with Paul. Paul, just as God had seen was saved. Paul had to be saved, or God would have not seen the end that He thought He had seen, before He made Paul just as he was and placed him where he wanted him to be. So Paul really had no choice. Did he? Or am I not understanding you right?

The other man is Cain. God looked down in time and saw that Cain would not believe. God then made Cain and Cain in fact did not believe. But, if you think about it, Cain could not believe, for If cain believed God did not see the end. Is this what you are saying?

In both cases Paul and Cain was made based on what God saw and the plan was placed in action based on what God saw. Nothing can change the plan now. The plan will play out just as God saw it play out. In the end they did just as God saw it long ago. Is this right?


To me, this sounds just like hyper-Calvinisim.

For me this does not address the issue. By picking one or two will not prove anything.

Agreeing with 1 has no bearing on the topic. God is always more powerful. God gave man his free will. No one will dispute God's power over man. But the issue is not His power it is his plan. One could ask a question that is more relevant such as

Does God's plan allow for free will in such a way that man in his sin state can respond to God

Well, I feel maybe it does address the issue. You see at some point one "will" will in fact control the other. The two do not match up.

If I want to pick up a rock and God does not want me to pick up a rock, who will win out?

Yes this is exactly what Scripture teaches in a host of places. Herein is another striking difference between Calvinism and my view which is not Arminian although that view disagrees too and is closer to mine. In my view Christ died for all and all can be saved. All will not be saved because all will not believe. All mankind's sin is forgiven but man must accept the forgiveness and believe. If man does not accept forgiveness according to the Scripture they then die in their sin.

This last quote of yours address if Gods goal was to save all mankind.

I need to ask this now. If this was the goal of God, and God foreknow Cain would not believe, why did not God save man before Cain was born? God would have kept His goal and saved all mankind and Cain as well as millions of others would not have gone to damnation. Each day that Christ does not come back, 1000s more die in their sins and are on their way to hell. The longer Christ does not come back, the more go to hell. Is God waiting for the whole world to be saved, or all of the elect to be saved?


In Christ...James

 

[PreachTREE]

So for election to work in this belief system, of which I ascribe to, man must have free will or we might say it this way, man is depraved but is capable of receiving salvation freely. His depravity is not inability.

This is where we differ brother. What is the result of the original sin? Do we die or are we simply sick?

I think the one thing both side can agree upon is we are depraved but event that had its differences Calvin’s total depravity is equated to cessation and my view is simply separation form God but the image of God is still there not eradicated or as in dead to be equated to that of physical death. Man's mind, will, emotions did not cease to be at the fall.

Man's mind, will, emotions did not cease to exist but they are distorted and damaged because of the fall. We do not seek God because of the fall. We are dead.

 

[GordonSlocum]

Paul was free to resist. Paul was not made to believe. Paul willing did what was ask of him. God knew Paul would believe and just because God knows it does not negate the freedom of His choice. We are free to do whatever we decide. The fact that God knows and makes declarative statements on the basis of His foreknowledge is not any form of Calvinism. It is the total opposite. Some believe and many don't that is just the way it is.

Paul was freely headed in a direction. God steps in and gets Paul’s attention. Paul does not resist and follows instruction. All fee will choices. Just because God actively in person gets involved in Paul’s life does not negate Paul's free will and choice to obey and believe. He could have done the opposite.

God's statements are on the basis of His Perfect Absolute knowledge of which we refer to as Foreknowledge / Foresight. It is that simple

 

[GordonSlocum]

This is where we differ brother. What is the result of the original sin? Do we die or are we simply sick?



Man's mind, will, emotions did not cease to exist but they are distorted and damaged because of the fall. We do not seek God because of the fall. We are dead.

Yes man is dead in his sin and trespasses. But the deadness is separation not cessation. It does not eliminate freedom to decide and agree with God about our state. If your "God Likeness" was as Calvinist teach you would not be able to survive everyday because you mind and will are dead in the sense of not being, no life.

Separation from God is called death and we know that it means separation. If man's depravity means totally dead he would be a zombie. Living proof that this view is not scriptural is multiplied according to everyone that lives as a single unit of testimony.

 

[Jarthur001]

Paul was free to resist. Paul was not made to believe. Paul willing did what was ask of him. God knew Paul would believe and just because God knows it does not negate the freedom of His choice. We are free to do whatever we decide. The fact that God knows and makes declarative statements on the basis of His foreknowledge is not any form of Calvinism. It is the total opposite. Some believe and many don't that is just the way it is.

Paul was freely headed in a direction. God steps in and gets Paul’s attention. Paul does not resist and follows instruction. All fee will choices. Just because God actively in person gets involved in Paul’s life does not negate Paul's free will and choice to obey and believe. He could have done the opposite.

God's statements are on the basis of His Perfect Absolute knowledge of which we refer to as Foreknowledge / Foresight. It is that simple

Hello GordonSlocum,

I'm not sure If I follow you now. Before you said God KNEW and based on what God KNEW God had a plan. God then MADE. If God MADE Paul, based on what God KNEW to carry out Gods plan, how could Paul not believe?

If we are free to do what we want, does this mean what God KNEW was not right? If the controling factor is what God KNEW and God made you based on what He KNEW, how does free will come in to play?

Also do not forget about Cain. I would like your insight as to why God did not save all man before Cain, if this was indeed Gods goal.


In Christ...James

 

[GordonSlocum]

This is where we differ brother. What is the result of the original sin? Do we die or are we simply sick?



Man's mind, will, emotions did not cease to exist but they are distorted and damaged because of the fall. We do not seek God because of the fall. We are dead.

You are right and I have said this on more than one occasion. We do not seek God and we are dead / separated in our sin and trespasses. However, God seeks us and tells us we are separated, lost, a sinner on the way to hell and are asked to make a decision based on the truth of the Gospel. Many say no and some say yes.

 

[PreachTREE]

If your "God Likeness" was as Calvinist teach you would not be able to survive everyday because you mind and will are dead in the sense of not being, no life.

I'm not sure which Calvinist you're speaking of. You're right, "dead" does mean separated. It is a spiritual death. We have no discernment of spiritual things until we are moved by God. And those that are moved are God's elect.

 

[PreachTREE]

You are right and I have said this on more than one occasion. We do not seek God and we are dead / separated in our sin and trespasses. However, God seeks us and tells us we are separated, lost, a sinner on the way to hell and are asked to make a decision based on the truth of the Gospel. Many say no and some say yes.

So what do you say about those that do not hear the Gospel (jungle tribes, etc)? How does God seek them?

 

[webdog]

So what do you say about those that do not hear the Gospel (jungle tribes, etc)? How does God seek them?

The Bible never states there are those who never have heard. That's human reasoning.

Rom 10:13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
Rom 10:14 But how can they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe without hearing about Him? And how can they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: How welcome are the feet of those who announce the gospel of good things!
Rom 10:16 But all did not obey the gospel. For Isaiah says, Lord, who has believed our message?
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the message about Christ.
Rom 10:18 But I ask, "Did they not hear?" Yes, they did: Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the inhabited world.

 

[MB]

Hi peach tree;

I'm not sure which Calvinist you're speaking of. You're right, "dead" does mean separated. It is a spiritual death. We have no discernment of spiritual things until we are moved by God. And those that are moved are God's elect.

Where does scripture say that?
MB

 

[webdog]

It doesn't. Their theology does.

 

[PreachTREE]

Hi peach tree;

Where does scripture say that?
MB

Man’s inability

Romans 8:5-8 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. qvb://0/anchor/66For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. qvb://0/anchor/77Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. qvb://0/anchor/88So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The ones that believed are the ones that have been predestinated

Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


Im sure we won't conclude this 400 year old debate today.

 

[PreachTREE]

The Bible never states there are those who never have heard. That's human reasoning.

Rom 10:13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
Rom 10:14 But how can they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe without hearing about Him? And how can they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: How welcome are the feet of those who announce the gospel of good things!
Rom 10:16 But all did not obey the gospel. For Isaiah says, Lord, who has believed our message?
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the message about Christ.
Rom 10:18 But I ask, "Did they not hear?" Yes, they did: Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the inhabited world.

Human reasoning? Reread the verses you have quoted. They do not hear unless there is a preacher who preaches about Him.

Do you contend that everyone hears the Gospel?

 

[psalms109:31]

Words of Jesus

The words that Jesus spoke is Spirit and they are life.

The Spirit in His words, but it does not incline our hearts to believe.

It gives us a clear choce to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be condemned.

We not only carry words of the Spirit, but life. As Jesus says that those who believe in Him springs of living water will flow from within Him