Did Christ died for all men or just some men?

I don't dispute that as it is the historically view even of many of the reformers, Augustine, John Calvin, and Luther even.

And that was a Note. :thumbsup: And anyone who wanted to be 'could' be in the Jewish fold...ie. Ruth and Tamar to name just a few. People always try to say that the majority of the known world didn't know of them. This is not true historically nor biblically as in:

It is quite interesting to me that God did such amazing thing with Israel and they went all over land for 40 years, that for some reason people think they were like an Island. In Solomans day Even Cleopatra came to see to the Glory of Gods Temple and to hear the Wisdom of Soloman. But we must understand that word did not JUST reach her ears. People knew of the Jews, Their God, and their strange beliefs but very few desired to BE a Jew.

Of course He was here for His sheep, no one has ever (that I know of) disputed that. He would obviously calls those whom He knew would be His, HIS own Sheep. Again, here no one disputes this. He knows not every one will be His but that is not the point of the sacrifice. The point of the sacrifice as I have already stated (concerning that sacrifice for the Nation - when not everyone of the Nation was following God) is that it is FOR the Atonement of any who would yeild themselves to God and His way. This is a short version of what I wrote in Post # 17 (I think that was the posting)

Yes, in the context of being a shepard - there was nothing that they would not do for their sheep. This again goes back to the sacrifice that is given for all but applied on some. It is that Group we knows as Gods people for they are the recipients of that sacrificial offering.

Look if you will at another time Jesus states He lays down His life, just for discussion.
"Greater love hath no man than this, than he lay down his life for his friends"
Jesus, Praise God - went far beyond this saying and laid down His life His enemies (sinners).

WHo are sinners, the Elect only?!?! or have ALL sinned and falled short of the glory of God.

Keep it in context brother, keep it in context.

 

I am curious why no one is mentioning the verse which answers the question in the opening post?

Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect [complete] through suffering.
Hebrews 2:8b-10

Clearly stated, He tasted death for EVERYONE, but only "many sons" were brought to glory.

The atonement is clearly and unambiguously stated by the Bible as being unlimited -- despite the claims of Calvinists. However not all are saved, as is also clearly stated, and explained by many other verses, such as 'whosoever believes...'

Realizing that all sins are insults to God, Jesus left not one standing for all eternity in terms of justice. All are taken care of. However, that does not have to do with the sinner him or herself, who must respond one way or the other to Christ. Calvinists say only God can enable the positive response, but that is not what the Bible says.

 

***with a slightly ashamed and blushing look - Allan nods in agreement***
I was.... Ok - I forgot that one.
There are others as well but...yeah...I forgot that one. :BangHead:

 

In the beginning

In the beginning of Paul's ministry he was like many of the members her eand at the end of his ministry in his letters to Timothy, he came to realize that God really does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Even Jesus told the women that He came for the lost sheep of Israel, but even dogs like me and her eat from the masters table.

The more we go out the more God reveals to us that the message of God is for the world.

Since the original members didn't want to come, He sent the message out to the world. We who put on Jesus Christ will be dressed for the banquet.

 

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

 

Who do you think Jesus presented the offering (his blood) to. In the OT, they presented the blood and sacrifice to God, and they pesented it all to God. It was a shadow of things to come, Jesus dying and shedding His blood, for the sin of the world. Jesus, when He died and shed His blood, He presented the offering to God and He presented it all. He gave everything He had. Now that the atonement is already presented to God for all men, then whosoever will believe, shall receive Salvation and deliverance from sin, which comes from that offering of atonement that has already been presented to the Father. There would be no Salvation if God didn't already have the offering.

 

If I may jump in here for a minute. God knows all including the possibilities in every situation and could have been situations. God for instance knows that if a person has the Gospel preached to them that they will accept or reject it. Because of this Foreknowledge God knows who will and will not respond to Him. In this God forms His over all plan. He knew Judas would not believe and used Him to accomplish His will and God knew Paul would believe so God used Paul as He did. God does not violate the freedom He gave us but uses our God given freedom to accomplish His purpose.

 

"All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all." (Isaiah 53:6)
Ever one who has ever lived has gone astray, and so He died for "...us all."

 

The "us" is specifically dealing with His sheep . All people go astray into sin , but Christ died only for His sheep . Goats and others were not covered in the atonement .

 

Excuse me? Who else then does the enabling? That is borderline blasphemy, if i'm reading your comment right. Forgive me if I'm wrong.

We do not go to God because we are unable. We are totally depraved (Ephesians 2:1). It is only by God's enabling that we can respond. And was once we are enabled, we will not reject because we do not want to (1 Cor 1:23-24); God has changed our sinful hearts to hearts that will accept him. He does the first move. Not us.

John 6:44a, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him..."

 

If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me.

 

Where would you place predestination/election in this process?

 

After belief...............

 

GS , God not only knows He determines . That is a big difference .

BB, the Lord does not draw all people in the sense that all are saved . The effectual drawing is toward those and those only He has determined to save before the foundation of the world . This particular drawing is not a tugging , but a full-scale accomplishment .

 

The Sovereignty Of God In Salvation

Lord, my weak thought in vain would climb
To search the starry vault profound ,
In vain would wing her flight sublime
To find creation's utmost bound .

But weaker yet that thought must prove
To search thy great eternal plan ,
Thy sovereign counsels , born in love
Long ages ere the world began .

When my dim reason would demand
Why that , or this , thou dost ordain ,
By some vast deep I seem to stand ,
Whose secrets I must ask in vain .

When doubts disturb my troubled breast ,
And all is dark as night to me ,
Here , as on solid rock , I rest --
That so it seemeth good to thee .

Be this my joy , that evermore
Thou rulest all things at thy will ;
Thy sovereign wisdom I adore ,
And calmly , sweetly , trust in thee .

Ray Palmer , 1858

 

Isaiah, chapter 45

"22": Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.


1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 5
10: For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11: And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12: Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14: Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15: But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16: And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17: For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18: Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 

Let's see...

Rippon - Philosophy, sophistry, and poetry to show his point.

Brother Bob - Scripture, and more scripture that detail his point.

See a difference. One shouts unbiblical and the other asks 'Where?'.

You can not prove on the basis of scripture Rippon that God determind and therefore THIS is why God foreknew. And IF you could you would be the First Calvinist in HISTORY to do so. It is pure philosophy trying to help merge a system together for cohesiveness. You can Prove that God determinded and you can prove there are decrees and you can even prove that God foreknew but you can not prove a sequence of events with respect to WHEN these happened. There is only one place that 'alludes' to a positional order (those whom He [foreknew] THEM He did predestinate.

But He still died FOR all but not all will come to Him.