Did Christ died for all men or just some men?

[Allan]

Allan, again I've shortened your response, but the whole thing is on post #17, for all who want to see context.

You are, of course, stating the popular view that Christ's atonement was sufficient for all, but efficient only for those who believe, the elect.

I don't dispute that as it is the historically view even of many of the reformers, Augustine, John Calvin, and Luther even.

Regarding the OT sacrifice analogy you cited (see post #17) I note that the sacrifice was not for all people, but only for the children of Irael. It was limited to a particular people over whom God set his love.

And that was a Note. :thumbsup: And anyone who wanted to be 'could' be in the Jewish fold...ie. Ruth and Tamar to name just a few. People always try to say that the majority of the known world didn't know of them. This is not true historically nor biblically as in:

Rom 10:18 specifically
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by [them that are] no people, [and] by a foolish nation I will anger you.

It is quite interesting to me that God did such amazing thing with Israel and they went all over land for 40 years, that for some reason people think they were like an Island. In Solomans day Even Cleopatra came to see to the Glory of Gods Temple and to hear the Wisdom of Soloman. But we must understand that word did not JUST reach her ears. People knew of the Jews, Their God, and their strange beliefs but very few desired to BE a Jew.

Regarding the other sheep not of this fold, are we agreed that this refers to Gentiles? Do you find it interesting, as I do, that Jesus called them sheep, even though they were not yet believers? This is not on point, just an interesting observation.

Of course He was here for His sheep, no one has ever (that I know of) disputed that. He would obviously calls those whom He knew would be His, HIS own Sheep. Again, here no one disputes this. He knows not every one will be His but that is not the point of the sacrifice. The point of the sacrifice as I have already stated (concerning that sacrifice for the Nation - when not everyone of the Nation was following God) is that it is FOR the Atonement of any who would yeild themselves to God and His way. This is a short version of what I wrote in Post # 17 (I think that was the posting)

But to the point, right before that, in John 10:15, Jesus said "...I lay down my life for the sheep." Sounds to me like the atonement was only for the sheep.

Yes, in the context of being a shepard - there was nothing that they would not do for their sheep. This again goes back to the sacrifice that is given for all but applied on some. It is that Group we knows as Gods people for they are the recipients of that sacrificial offering.

Look if you will at another time Jesus states He lays down His life, just for discussion.
"Greater love hath no man than this, than he lay down his life for his friends"
Jesus, Praise God - went far beyond this saying and laid down His life His enemies (sinners).

1Ti 1:15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

WHo are sinners, the Elect only?!?! or have ALL sinned and falled short of the glory of God.

Keep it in context brother, keep it in context.

 

[Helen]

I am curious why no one is mentioning the verse which answers the question in the opening post?

Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect [complete] through suffering.
Hebrews 2:8b-10

Clearly stated, He tasted death for EVERYONE, but only "many sons" were brought to glory.

The atonement is clearly and unambiguously stated by the Bible as being unlimited -- despite the claims of Calvinists. However not all are saved, as is also clearly stated, and explained by many other verses, such as 'whosoever believes...'

Realizing that all sins are insults to God, Jesus left not one standing for all eternity in terms of justice. All are taken care of. However, that does not have to do with the sinner him or herself, who must respond one way or the other to Christ. Calvinists say only God can enable the positive response, but that is not what the Bible says.

 

[Allan]

I am curious why no one is mentioning the verse which answers the question in the opening post?

Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect [complete] through suffering.
Hebrews 2:8b-10

Clearly stated, He tasted death for EVERYONE, but only "many sons" were brought to glory.

The atonement is clearly and unambiguously stated by the Bible as being unlimited -- despite the claims of Calvinists. However not all are saved, as is also clearly stated, and explained by many other verses, such as 'whosoever believes...'

Realizing that all sins are insults to God, Jesus left not one standing for all eternity in terms of justice. All are taken care of. However, that does not have to do with the sinner him or herself, who must respond one way or the other to Christ. Calvinists say only God can enable the positive response, but that is not what the Bible says.

***with a slightly ashamed and blushing look - Allan nods in agreement***
I was.... Ok - I forgot that one.
There are others as well but...yeah...I forgot that one. :BangHead:

 

[psalms109:31]

In the beginning

In the beginning of Paul's ministry he was like many of the members her eand at the end of his ministry in his letters to Timothy, he came to realize that God really does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Even Jesus told the women that He came for the lost sheep of Israel, but even dogs like me and her eat from the masters table.

The more we go out the more God reveals to us that the message of God is for the world.

Since the original members didn't want to come, He sent the message out to the world. We who put on Jesus Christ will be dressed for the banquet.

 

[Blammo]

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

 

[MB]

Hi Tom;

Here are a couple of scripture passages that Calvinists cite to demonstrate particular redemption:

Isaiah 53:8-11. Key verse "he shall see the travail of his soul and be satisfied.."

In this Messianic prophecy, "he" is God, "his soul" is that of the Messiah, Jesus, referring to the crucifixion. It tells us that God's justice, which demands that every sin be paid for, has been satisfied by Jesus travail on the cross. Since some go to hell, it cannot mean that every sin has been paid for, else they would not go to hell.

The atonement in my opinion is only applicable, when we believe. Otherwise you would be right that all would be saved if this weren't the case. The atonement is conditional and it's limited to that condition.

One is faced then with interpreting this passage to mean universal salvation, or that Jesus travail atoned for the sins of the elect only.

This is what I don't understand. Christ died that the whole world might be saved. John 3:17. Before Christ, the descendants of Jacob were all elect but not all were saved. My point is that election doesn't mean we will be saved but that Salvation is with in our grasp. In other words we are chosen to, and for, but not through Salvation. If we all have to be elect in order that we be saved, then let me ask you about Nineveh. These people weren't elect but, they believed Jonah's preaching and were saved. The only elect we know of, up to that time are the Jews. The Jews were elected to be the people of God. Salvation seems to transcend election in Nineveh. Unless all men through all time have been chosen to Salvation. Like you I tend to believe the obvious at the time unless something to the contrary is revealed.

Matthew 1:21 "He shall save HIS people from their sins..." His people, those who are already his, those whom God has given him.

Are the Gentiles his people?. When we are saved this is when we are adopted or grafted in. We can't be grafted in before we believe, can we?. We were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. but this is not a choosing of our selves alone or particularity. We are chosen "in Him". We are chosen in Him because, it is through Him that we receive our Salvation.

For me this places the responsibility for our own souls on our own heads. If we don't believe we will receive our just deserts. I know you must believe man to be undeserving of any thing from God. I thank God it isn't about what I deserve but, about the desires of God. We are forgiven of our sins because he desires to forgive us when we confess our sins. It's His desire that we admit our wrong doings. It's His desire that we turn from our sins. It's also His desire that all men be saved.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Christ gave Him Self a ransom for all. Surely this is a choosing for all man kind to be saved if they would believe.
I believe in Jesus Christ with all of my heart. There is nothing in this world more valuable to me that to be with Him. He is my treasure.

Thank you for your response Brother Tom.
MB

 

[Brother Bob]

Who do you think Jesus presented the offering (his blood) to. In the OT, they presented the blood and sacrifice to God, and they pesented it all to God. It was a shadow of things to come, Jesus dying and shedding His blood, for the sin of the world. Jesus, when He died and shed His blood, He presented the offering to God and He presented it all. He gave everything He had. Now that the atonement is already presented to God for all men, then whosoever will believe, shall receive Salvation and deliverance from sin, which comes from that offering of atonement that has already been presented to the Father. There would be no Salvation if God didn't already have the offering.

 

[MB]

I am curious why no one is mentioning the verse which answers the question in the opening post?

Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect [complete] through suffering.
Hebrews 2:8b-10

Clearly stated, He tasted death for EVERYONE, but only "many sons" were brought to glory.

Good scriptures to consider I also believe He died for everyman sins. The many that believed were convinced of the truth. The rest weren't convinced.

The atonement is clearly and unambiguously stated by the Bible as being unlimited -- despite the claims of Calvinists. However not all are saved, as is also clearly stated, and explained by many other verses, such as 'whosoever believes...'

I don't believe that the atonement is limited to a certain particular group but it is limited by the condition of Belief. The atonement isn't applied with out belief. If it were everyone would be saved with or with out belief.

Do you believe that only a few are elected to Salvation?, or are we all chosen for Salvation?
Wouldn't it be necessary for all to be chosen for Salvation for Christ to have died for the whole world?

Realizing that all sins are insults to God, Jesus left not one standing for all eternity in terms of justice. All are taken care of. However, that does not have to do with the sinner him or herself, who must respond one way or the other to Christ. Calvinists say only God can enable the positive response, but that is not what the Bible says.

I agree, I would add that I do not understand how this disablement came to be. I just don't see it in scripture. Christ asking the Pharisee's why they couldn't hear Him doesn't mean they couldn't any more that they just didn't listen. People are more likely to look right at you and not hear a word you're saying because, with in they're thinking of something else rather than to be disabled in their hearing. With out our focus how can we understand anything. In my opinion scripture has to confirm scripture. If a particular precept is only mentioned once I'll hang on to it so that some day it might be better understood but until I understand it clearly. I have to consider it a mystery. Our understanding of everything isn't perfectly clear the moment we here it we have to think about it, considering how it effects what we do understand.
Thank you for your comments.
MB

 

[MB]

Hi Brother Bob;

Who do you think Jesus presented the offering (his blood) to. In the OT, they presented the blood and sacrifice to God, and they pesented it all to God. It was a shadow of things to come, Jesus dying and shedding His blood, for the sin of the world. Jesus, when He died and shed His blood, He presented the offering to God and He presented it all. He gave everything He had. Now that the atonement is already presented to God for all men, then whosoever will believe, shall receive Salvation and deliverance from sin, which comes from that offering of atonement that has already been presented to the Father. There would be no Salvation if God didn't already have the offering.

Isn't the "whosoever will believe", a limitation of the atonement? It makes sense to me. If it weren't limited to this condition then all would be saved whether or not they believe.
MB

 

[GordonSlocum]

Just wondering, do you believe that God, in His sovereignty is capable of changing the fallen wills of every individual? If so, why doesn't He? He appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus in a bright light and a loud voice. Do you think there was any good chance that Saul was going to reject Christ in this encounter? Why does God not give everyone the same revelation? Who could reject Christ if He Himself spoke from heaven in bright light?

If I may jump in here for a minute. God knows all including the possibilities in every situation and could have been situations. God for instance knows that if a person has the Gospel preached to them that they will accept or reject it. Because of this Foreknowledge God knows who will and will not respond to Him. In this God forms His over all plan. He knew Judas would not believe and used Him to accomplish His will and God knew Paul would believe so God used Paul as He did. God does not violate the freedom He gave us but uses our God given freedom to accomplish His purpose.

 

[Watchman]

"All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all." (Isaiah 53:6)
Ever one who has ever lived has gone astray, and so He died for "...us all."

 

[Rippon]

The "us" is specifically dealing with His sheep . All people go astray into sin , but Christ died only for His sheep . Goats and others were not covered in the atonement .

 

[PreachTREE]

Calvinists say only God can enable the positive response, but that is not what the Bible says.

Excuse me? Who else then does the enabling? That is borderline blasphemy, if i'm reading your comment right. Forgive me if I'm wrong.

We do not go to God because we are unable. We are totally depraved (Ephesians 2:1). It is only by God's enabling that we can respond. And was once we are enabled, we will not reject because we do not want to (1 Cor 1:23-24); God has changed our sinful hearts to hearts that will accept him. He does the first move. Not us.

John 6:44a, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him..."

 

[Brother Bob]

If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me.

 

[PreachTREE]

God knows all including the possibilities in every situation and could have been situations. God for instance knows that if a person has the Gospel preached to them that they will accept or reject it. Because of this Foreknowledge God knows who will and will not respond to Him.

Where would you place predestination/election in this process?

 

[Brother Bob]

After belief...............

 

[Rippon]

GS , God not only knows He determines . That is a big difference .

BB, the Lord does not draw all people in the sense that all are saved . The effectual drawing is toward those and those only He has determined to save before the foundation of the world . This particular drawing is not a tugging , but a full-scale accomplishment .

 

[Rippon]

The Sovereignty Of God In Salvation

Lord, my weak thought in vain would climb
To search the starry vault profound ,
In vain would wing her flight sublime
To find creation's utmost bound .

But weaker yet that thought must prove
To search thy great eternal plan ,
Thy sovereign counsels , born in love
Long ages ere the world began .

When my dim reason would demand
Why that , or this , thou dost ordain ,
By some vast deep I seem to stand ,
Whose secrets I must ask in vain .

When doubts disturb my troubled breast ,
And all is dark as night to me ,
Here , as on solid rock , I rest --
That so it seemeth good to thee .

Be this my joy , that evermore
Thou rulest all things at thy will ;
Thy sovereign wisdom I adore ,
And calmly , sweetly , trust in thee .

Ray Palmer , 1858

 

[Brother Bob]

BB, the Lord does not draw all people in the sense that all are saved . The effectual drawing is toward those and those only He has determined to save before the foundation of the world . This particular drawing is not a tugging , but a full-scale accomplishment .

Isaiah, chapter 45

"22": Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.


1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 5
10: For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11: And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12: Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14: Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15: But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16: And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17: For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18: Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 

[Allan]

Let's see...

Rippon - Philosophy, sophistry, and poetry to show his point.

Brother Bob - Scripture, and more scripture that detail his point.

See a difference. One shouts unbiblical and the other asks 'Where?'.

You can not prove on the basis of scripture Rippon that God determind and therefore THIS is why God foreknew. And IF you could you would be the First Calvinist in HISTORY to do so. It is pure philosophy trying to help merge a system together for cohesiveness. You can Prove that God determinded and you can prove there are decrees and you can even prove that God foreknew but you can not prove a sequence of events with respect to WHEN these happened. There is only one place that 'alludes' to a positional order (those whom He [foreknew] THEM He did predestinate.

But He still died FOR all but not all will come to Him.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time

Hbr 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.