Did Christ died for all men or just some men?

[GordonSlocum]

1) God is
(2) God Planed
(3) God implemented His plan

I think we might agree on 1, 2, and 3.

Now what is in the Plan? Can God plan his plan the why he wants to? Can the plan in its finished form take into account actions that have not occurred because Creation of time and space does not exist?

I answer yes?

OK

Using Christ as the example: God created. Adam and Eve are in the garden. They sin and we are told of a savior in Genesis 3:15.

God knew before the plan was a plan that Adam would exist and sin and He knew He would send God the Son to die for the sin of mankind because He knew Adam would sin free and willfully.

God also sees the intent of every person who will exist and know weather or not they would believe the truth.

If we follow your thinking as you have ask the questions then not saving all would be injustice and contradiction. However, the desire to save is not predicated on special selection. If it were all would be saved. God would just elect all and that would be it.

No, Election is based on God's foreknowledge of man's faith in God according to the dispensation they are in.

I solve it this way. I personally believe that God sends witness to everyone that would believe because He knows all the possibilities before they are.

Because God has absolute knowledge he knows all decision that will be made and He knows all possibilities of alternate decision had the decision been different.

Because God desires all men to be saved he is long suffering not willing any to perish indicated to me that God‘s desire to that it be so means they have the ability to accept the Gospel. If not such an offer is contradictory. To His will because this passage states His will. So how are we to reconcile this will of God with the statements on Election and Salvation. I know no other way to reconcile it but as I have explained it. Take out this verse and others and You view would make sense to me but these key passages are in Scripture and have to be accepted as do the others.

Acts 13:48 tells us that all that were appointed to eternal life believed. God foresaw their belief and appointed them in eternity even though they as a person did not exist. For us it is now for God it was before we existed. Every ones salvation is settled in heaven before the foundation of the world on the basis of God's foreknowledge. That is how and why the writer can declare it as having been settled in eternity. All that the Father draws are the ones that God saw in eternity that would believe. God saw all that would and elected them, and appointed them to eternal life. The Devine appointment was before existence but the believing was at a point in time for us because we live in space and time. Our space and time is not God’s perspective but ours.

From eternity it is a done deal but from our side it is not. The Gospel of John to me clearly teaches this. The Gospel is legitimately offered to the whole world. God in his absolute knowledge seeing all the actual and possible outcomes and the working of his plan according to these foreseen actual events He so guides man and history to accomplish His purposes. His plan includes his foreknowledge by which he is completely Sovereign.

For me the only way I can reconcile all the different statements about Election, Faith, God's Desire is as I have done it. I accept man's depravity, God's Sovereignty. I personally believe God would save everyone if everyone would trust in Christ. But they don't. God knows this from eternity not because he made anyone saved but because He knew all actual and real possibilities of each individual. The Gospel is give to a person they believe or reject. God knows that if He approached a person if that person would believe or not. This foreknowledge is the basis of election and in that it is settled in eternity he then makes sure these people receive the Gospel and knowing in Eternity they are declared Elect and appointed to eternal life before they are born. Those God knows will accept Him are given he witness and they believe so they are pronounced as appointed from eternity and therefore they believe. Again it is settled in God’s mind before creation but we still have to believe. The difference is God seeing our faith and God making us believe. Both my view and yours are rooted in the eternal past (human perspective). In a nut shell that is the real difference.

You, I believe, see it the opposite.

I think the only real difference between you and my understanding is this:

You see all mankind so depraved they can not respond to the Gospel and because all can't God elects or picks out of the all some. You see foreknowledge as a relationship over against knowledge of something whereby a relationship is established.

I see man as depraved but not to such an extent man can not receive the Grace of God according to their dispensation. God sees all actual and potential possibilities of individuals and on that basis elects and declares it in eternity and in history the gospel is delivered to all and these elect on the basis of foreknowledge are in the all and they were seen to believe in eternity and they do. My view allows for God to make the statement "I am not willing any perish and all come to repentance because it is true, including the key concept patience." No need for longsuffering and patience if the issue of man is so depraved that he would never believe. The offer makes not sense in this case.

 

[reformedbeliever]

1) God is
(2) God Planed
(3) God implemented His plan

I think we might agree on 1, 2, and 3.

Now what is in the Plan? Can God plan his plan the why he wants to? Can the plan in its finished form take into account actions that have not occurred because Creation of time and space does not exist?

I answer yes?

OK

Using Christ as the example: God created. Adam and Eve are in the garden. They sin and we are told of a savior in Genesis 3:15.

God knew before the plan was a plan that Adam would exist and sin and He knew He would send God the Son to die for the sin of mankind because He knew Adam would sin free and willfully.

God also sees the intent of every person who will exist and know weather or not they would believe the truth.

If we follow your thinking as you have ask the questions then not saving all would be injustice and contradiction. However, the desire to save is not predicated on special selection. If it were all would be saved. God would just elect all and that would be it.

No, Election is based on God's foreknowledge of man's faith in God according to the dispensation they are in.

I solve it this way. I personally believe that God sends witness to everyone that would believe because He knows all the possibilities before they are.

Because God has absolute knowledge he knows all decision that will be made and He knows all possibilities of alternate decision had the decision been different.

Because God desires all men to be saved he is long suffering not willing any to perish indicated to me that God‘s desire to that it be so means they have the ability to accept the Gospel. If not such an offer is contradictory. To His will because this passage states His will. So how are we to reconcile this will of God with the statements on Election and Salvation. I know no other way to reconcile it but as I have explained it. Take out this verse and others and You view would make sense to me but these key passages are in Scripture and have to be accepted as do the others.

Acts 13:48 tells us that all that were appointed to eternal life believed. God foresaw their belief and appointed them in eternity even though they as a person did not exist. For us it is now for God it was before we existed. Every ones salvation is settled in heaven before the foundation of the world on the basis of God's foreknowledge. That is how and why the writer can declare it as having been settled in eternity. All that the Father draws are the ones that God saw in eternity that would believe. God saw all that would and elected them, and appointed them to eternal life. The Devine appointment was before existence but the believing was at a point in time for us because we live in space and time. Our space and time is not God’s perspective but ours.

From eternity it is a done deal but from our side it is not. The Gospel of John to me clearly teaches this. The Gospel is legitimately offered to the whole world. God in his absolute knowledge seeing all the actual and possible outcomes and the working of his plan according to these foreseen actual events He so guides man and history to accomplish His purposes. His plan includes his foreknowledge by which he is completely Sovereign.

For me the only way I can reconcile all the different statements about Election, Faith, God's Desire is as I have done it. I accept man's depravity, God's Sovereignty. I personally believe God would save everyone if everyone would trust in Christ. But they don't. God knows this from eternity not because he made anyone saved but because He knew all actual and real possibilities of each individual. The Gospel is give to a person they believe or reject. God knows that if He approached a person if that person would believe or not. This foreknowledge is the basis of election and in that it is settled in eternity he then makes sure these people receive the Gospel and knowing in Eternity they are declared Elect and appointed to eternal life before they are born. Those God knows will accept Him are given he witness and they believe so they are pronounced as appointed from eternity and therefore they believe. Again it is settled in God’s mind before creation but we still have to believe. The difference is God seeing our faith and God making us believe. Both my view and yours are rooted in the eternal past (human perspective). In a nut shell that is the real difference.

You, I believe, see it the opposite.

I think the only real difference between you and my understanding is this:

You see all mankind so depraved they can not respond to the Gospel and because all can't God elects or picks out of the all some. You see foreknowledge as a relationship over against knowledge of something whereby a relationship is established.

I see man as depraved but not to such an extent man can not receive the Grace of God according to their dispensation. God sees all actual and potential possibilities of individuals and on that basis elects and declares it in eternity and in history the gospel is delivered to all and these elect on the basis of foreknowledge are in the all and they were seen to believe in eternity and they do. My view allows for God to make the statement "I am not willing any perish and all come to repentance because it is true, including the key concept patience." No need for longsuffering and patience if the issue of man is so depraved that he would never believe. The offer makes not sense in this case.

The problem is that you still put the *free* will of men above the sovereignty of God. Could Adam and Eve have chosen differently than they did? Christ was slain before the foundation of the world. They could not have chosen differently than they did.

 

[sundoulos]

In these passages is the election of all men. Will any one show me scriptures of the particular election of just some men to Salvation?
MB

John Owen's Death of Death in the Death of Christ and his other writings of volume 6 will answer this question for you.

 

[Blammo]

Originally Posted by MB

In these passages is the election of all men. Will any one show me scriptures of the particular election of just some men to Salvation?
MB

John Owen's Death of Death in the Death of Christ and his other writings of volume 6 will answer this question for you.

If you would, kindly reread what MB asked for. It was not a request for a reformed theology book. (Unless you consider that "scripture")

 

[sundoulos]

Death of Death in the Death of Christ

Originally Posted by MB

If you would, kindly reread what MB asked for. It was not a request for a reformed theology book. (Unless you consider that "scripture")

I did read what he asked for. Owens cites the Scriptures he is looking for and gives a bit of explanation. Your answer and his question are both simplistic. I recommend the book because it may answer his question and will definately give him something to think about and will save a lot of broadband and minimize aggrevating posts.

 

[sundoulos]

In these passages is the election of all men. Will any one show me scriptures of the particular election of just some men to Salvation?
MB

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.


Who shall he save? "His people," not the whole world.

Whose sins shall he save them from (lit., "Out of")? Their — the ones he would die for.

And their are others but I have to run.

 

[Blammo]

Romans 9:25-33 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


Who are "His people"?

 

[GordonSlocum]

The problem is that you still put the *free* will of men above the sovereignty of God. Could Adam and Eve have chosen differently than they did? Christ was slain before the foundation of the world. They could not have chosen differently than they did.

I don't follow you on your thinking. The Sovereignty of God is not threatened by free will and because God is Sovereign He can let people have free will if He likes, and He does. Our free will has, in my thinking, no beading on God's sovereignty. We are bound by time, space, and our physical, mental, and image of God boundaries. However, within the boundaries we have certain freedoms. God's sovereignty is not threaten, hindered, stopped, nullified or canceled because of it. He in fact is the Sovereign One Who allowed, designed, permitted, and maintains our existence with its limits and liberties / freedoms.

Adam and Eve had a choice so the answer is yes they could have chosen differently. To have a choice is to be free in that area, understanding the limits of time and space coupled with physical limitation, and intellectual ones within this time and space. Freedom is ability to pick this or that within our existing abilities / limits. Adam and Eve were not told "I am placing this tree of good and evil in the Garden and you have to eat of it so that you will become a sinner. You have no choice or freedom to not pick it. You will pick it and eat it and even though I declare that when you pick and eat you will commit sin and this sin will separate you - you do it because I make you to do it. That is the difference.

Again - why was Christ slain before the foundation of the world? Because in God's eyes, God saw the sin provided the cure and sealed it before it existed. The fact that God clearly states that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world is perhaps one of the strongest cases for salvation being based on foreknowledge / foresight.

There are tree very strong cases for freedom and foreknowledge

(1) Peter tells us that is the way it is
(2) The Bible tells us Christ was slain before the foundation
(3) We are elect "in Christ"

Notice the third point (A) Christ slain before the foundation and foreknowledge is affirmed in the very statement; (B) Being In Christ places us as secure as Christ is secure. We are so very much elect before the foundation of the word in Christ and we are so on the basis of foreknowledge / foresight. It is on this basis that God can say and the Scripture can record that we are elect and appointed before all creation and have that follow in a written statement that because of this election and appointment based upon foreknowledge that we believe. "All who were appointed from eternity believed. You talk about security that is eternal security.

I have to marvel because to me it is so very simple and clear. I don't understand why everyone does not understand that.

 

[PreachTREE]

I don't understand everyone's hang up on the fact that God chose some and decided not to choose others? God does NOT owe man anything. If you want a "fair" God, then that would call for God to send all of us to hell; Do you want a "fair" God? The fact that God has his elect does not affect His character. Why do we as an undeserving people demand God for him to have elected everyone?

 

[psalms109:31]

pharisees

Modern day pharisees taking away the hope God gave to the world through Jesus for thier own false securities.

If you do not want to agree with God or not He still wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and made us the messenger of this.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I don't follow you on your thinking. The Sovereignty of God is not threatened by free will and because God is Sovereign He can let people have free will if He likes, and He does. Our free will has, in my thinking, no beading on God's sovereignty. We are bound by time, space, and our physical, mental, and image of God boundaries. However, within the boundaries we have certain freedoms. God's sovereignty is not threaten, hindered, stopped, nullified or canceled because of it. He in fact is the Sovereign One Who allowed, designed, permitted, and maintains our existence with its limits and liberties / freedoms.

Adam and Eve had a choice so the answer is yes they could have chosen differently. To have a choice is to be free in that area, understanding the limits of time and space coupled with physical limitation, and intellectual ones within this time and space. Freedom is ability to pick this or that within our existing abilities / limits. Adam and Eve were not told "I am placing this tree of good and evil in the Garden and you have to eat of it so that you will become a sinner. You have no choice or freedom to not pick it. You will pick it and eat it and even though I declare that when you pick and eat you will commit sin and this sin will separate you - you do it because I make you to do it. That is the difference.

Again - why was Christ slain before the foundation of the world? Because in God's eyes, God saw the sin provided the cure and sealed it before it existed. The fact that God clearly states that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world is perhaps one of the strongest cases for salvation being based on foreknowledge / foresight.

There are tree very strong cases for freedom and foreknowledge

(1) Peter tells us that is the way it is
(2) The Bible tells us Christ was slain before the foundation
(3) We are elect "in Christ"

Notice the third point (A) Christ slain before the foundation and foreknowledge is affirmed in the very statement; (B) Being In Christ places us as secure as Christ is secure. We are so very much elect before the foundation of the word in Christ and we are so on the basis of foreknowledge / foresight. It is on this basis that God can say and the Scripture can record that we are elect and appointed before all creation and have that follow in a written statement that because of this election and appointment based upon foreknowledge that we believe. "All who were appointed from eternity believed. You talk about security that is eternal security.

I have to marvel because to me it is so very simple and clear. I don't understand why everyone does not understand that.

You have God seeing into the future to learn what man would do, so that He could come up with a solution? God has nothing to learn from man.

 

[J.D.]

Gordon, I have a question. If God wanted you to go to Hell (for the sake of argument, let's pretend that he does) but you wanted to go to heaven instead, who's will would determine the outcome, yours or God's?

 

[GordonSlocum]

Gordon, I have a question. If God wanted you to go to Hell (for the sake of argument, let's pretend that he does) but you wanted to go to heaven instead, who's will would determine the outcome, yours or God's?

The question is not a legitimate question in that it does not represent facts according to the Scripture as to who God is and who I am. It is a loaded question not based on facts or truth.

However, in all fairness to the question assuming that the God of the question is a sovereign God who in my maker then the answer is God

 

[psalms109:31]

Destruction

We all are headed for destruction, the only one who can cummunicate with God on our behalf is Jesus. We all are dirty rags, our only hope for salvation is Jesus.

Those who put thier trust in Jesus will not be disappointed.

We cannot go to court with God we need a mediator someone who is not only man, but also God.

Who can save me from this body of death praise be to Jesus.

God through His word has given to Jesus whosoever believes in Him.

Jesus in not only our mediator to God, but God's mediator to us.

Jesus say's God loved the world that whosoever believes shall be saved.

You can believe the sepent who say's God really didn't mean that.

 

[GordonSlocum]

You have God seeing into the future to learn what man would do, so that He could come up with a solution? God has nothing to learn from man.

It has nothing to do whit God learning from man.

Using your answer you nullify Christ.

Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. Why?

The answer to the Why answers the question correctly. What is that? Christ died for a reason. That reason was for the salvation of mankind. Why does man need salvation when he has not been created yet, why does God need to learn from man so that He can die for his sin? You see you question is a trap to your thinking. You have to deal with Christ who was slain before the foundation of the world and that was before man was created and sinned in time and space. Man did not exist but God knows he will because He planned it the same as He planned for Christ to be slain from the foundation of the world because God knew Adam would sin. Why because God posses Absolute Knowledge which we refer to as foresight / foreknowledge.

This is why the Absolute knowledge of God is so wonderful. It has the ability to know to such an extent that it can plan a plan that solves the problem before the plan is planed and put in action. Noting is impossible with My Loving Heavenly Father of Who I bow and reverence. My heart is full of joy and gladness just thinking about it.

I get all excited thinking about how great God is and how much he loves me because he died for me before the foundation of creation. That is so magnanimous that it boggles the mind. Glory to God.

I love the song at Calvary. I find myself positioned before God with a prostrate heart of submission and contrition. He is my All. I can't tell you how much I love my Lord for His salvation of my life.

 

[J.D.]

The question is not a legitimate question in that it does not represent facts according to the Scripture as to who God is and who I am. It is a loaded question not based on facts or truth.

However, in all fairness to the question assuming that the God of the question is a sovereign God who in my maker then the answer is God

Gordon, thanks for that reply. And yes, you are right, it is a loaded question and I appreciate your answer. If the sovereign God of the universe has willed that either you or I should not enter heaven, then there's nothing imaginable that can get us in there. Why? Because, as the scripture says, "Who hath resisted His will?"

So it becomes clear that no one enters here nor there without God's will. So if we reverse it - let's say God has willed that we should go to heaven, but we have willed to go to hell, where do we go? If the will of God can prevent us from entering heaven, can it not also prevent us from entering hell?

Ah, but you'll probably say that the scripture tells us that it IS God's will for us to enter heaven. And thus the arminian/pelagian conundrum. If God's will truely reigns in the end, then it must be so that if He has willed the salvation of every person, then every person must be saved.

Or else, he has not willed the salvation of every person.

Or else, His will is not Will at all, but rather a wish. If we demand by our free will entrance into His heaven, he can not deny us, no matter what His will (wish) may be.

 

[J.D.]

have to go will check back later.

 

[Tom Butler]

Gordon, I salute you on your post #81. It's one of the best thought-out defenses of the foreknowledge view of election that I have read.

I hold the opposite view, so obviously I think there are some flaws.

If God bases election in eternity upon the foreseen faith, then he is reacting, not acting. The "omnipotent" God must elect, he has no other choice. Man, in effect, has elected himself. When God is powerless to do other than man will allow him to do, then he is not omnipotent.

If God foresees saving faith, then from the man's end, he must exercise saving faith. His choice is set from eternity and he has no power to exercise any other. When he hears the gospel, he does not have the power to say yes or no. He must say yes.

I know the argument that God is sovereign and omnipotent and has given man the free will choose or reject Christ. Yet, nothing takes place in time until man chooses, and God cannot make it happen. And, once God foresees a man's faith, everything that follows is fixed, with no latitude on either God's side or man's.

I forget whether it was JArthur, reformed believer, or somebody else who described election based on foreseen faith as very close to hyper-Calvinism. Now you can see why.

 

[sundoulos]

Who are "His people"?

Those whom he chose before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:4

 

[sundoulos]

No, Election is based on God's foreknowledge of man's faith in God according to the dispensation they are in.

This is an impossibility. God is immutable. "I change not." Malachi 3:6. If God does anything because he foresees, this means his knowledge was incomplete and finite. Forknowledge does not mean prescience, it means to fore-love (as in Adam knew his wife).