Did God Kill His own Son Upon The Cross?

[Luke2427]

When Jesus was being arrested Peter drew his sword and cut the ear off of the High Preist. To which Jesus said

Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Jesus went willingly to the cross, but this verse makes it obvious that God would have rescued Him if Jesus had just asked.

I don't know about you people, but I would rather give up my own life than to watch my son tortured and killed.

Noone knows the mind of God. Yes, it is obvious that he allowed the death of Jesus, but to say that He caused the death of His son is beyond human comprehension.

John

It is not beyond the comprehension of millions, perhpas hundreds of millions of Christians who span the ages.

Scripture could not be more clear. It pleased the LORD to bruise him. Thou (God) hast made his soul an offering for sin.

Pilate and Herod did whatever God ordained to be done.

These are things the Scriptures affirm in no uncertain terms. He did it to glorify Christ and to ensure our salvation. Nothing could be nobler.

God killed Christ. He did it in various ways.

He planned it, ordained it, ordered the events so that it would come to pass, utilized the wicked hearts and hands of those who did the physical work of crucifying Jesus, etc...

To deny this, imo, is to embrace some erroneous preaching and teaching over the Word of God.

Of course doing this is very popular in some movements.

 

[Amy.G]

If anyone killed Jesus, it was me...and you.

But He gave His life. It wasn't taken. That's grace.

 

[Luke2427]

If anyone killed Jesus, it was me...and you.

But He gave His life. It wasn't taken. That's grace.

That's not what the Bible says. You have to choose between what you WANT to believe and what Scripture teaches.

Yes. Mankind is responsible for the death of Christ. Scripture also confirms that God killed him.

So you have to choose between what feels good and right to you and what the Word of God actually teaches.

 

[Amy.G]

That's not what the Bible says. You have to choose between what you WANT to believe and what Scripture teaches.

Yes. Mankind is responsible for the death of Christ. Scripture also confirms that God killed him.

So you have to choose between what feels good and right to you and what the Word of God actually teaches.

Jesus IS God. God decreed that He would put Himself in a human body and take the punishment for our sin. And yes, it pleased Him to do so. But God did not KILL Jesus.

And stop accusing me of not believing the bible simply because I don't agree with you. I've been reading it longer than you smarty pants.

 

[seekingthetruth]

It is not beyond the comprehension of millions, perhpas hundreds of millions of Christians who span the ages.

Scripture could not be more clear. It pleased the LORD to bruise him. Thou (God) hast made his soul an offering for sin.

Pilate and Herod did whatever God ordained to be done.

These are things the Scriptures affirm in no uncertain terms. He did it to glorify Christ and to ensure our salvation. Nothing could be nobler.

God killed Christ. He did it in various ways.

He planned it, ordained it, ordered the events so that it would come to pass, utilized the wicked hearts and hands of those who did the physical work of crucifying Jesus, etc...

To deny this, imo, is to embrace some erroneous preaching and teaching over the Word of God.

Of course doing this is very popular in some movements.

this is outright heresy

John

 

[Amy.G]

17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

Jesus can say this because He is God. We are talking about the unity of the Trinity here as well and maybe that is confusing you Luke.

 

[Luke2427]

Jesus IS God. God decreed that He would put Himself in a human body and take the punishment for our sin. And yes, it pleased Him to do so. But God did not KILL Jesus.

And stop accusing me of not believing the bible simply because I don't agree with you. I've been reading it longer than you smarty pants.

So has Jim Jones. That is a meaningless comment.

God KILLED Christ. The Bible is not unclear on this.

So yes. You have to choose whether you will cling to what you FEEL or what Scripture says.

 

[Winman]

Amy said;

And stop accusing me of not believing the bible simply because I don't agree with you. I've been reading it longer than you smarty pants.

I think this is the funniest statement I have ever seen on BB! Good thing I wasn't drinking something when I read this!

You go girl!

 

[Amy.G]

So has Jim Jones. That is a meaningless comment.

So has Jim Jones what?

No. Your comments are meaningless. Smarty pants.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy said;



I think this is the funniest statement I have ever seen on BB! Good thing I wasn't drinking something when I read this!

You go girl!

:laugh: It just seemed appropriate. I think Luke needs a spanking actually. Since I'm old enough to be his mother, I figure who better to do it? :laugh:

 

[Luke2427]

17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

Jesus can say this because He is God. We are talking about the unity of the Trinity here as well and maybe that is confusing you Luke.

It is not a good hermeneutic that pretends that since the Scripture affirms that Jesus laid down his life that NNE KILLED him.

Jesus laying down his life is not the whole story.

No one TOOK it from him- that does not mean by any means that no one killed him. It is more complicated than that.

Peter clearly says that he WAS killed.
Acts 2:23
this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

This is a common problem with debates on here. Some people get a proof text like "nobody takes my life from me- I lay it down" and then say- "THERE!! That settles it!" as if that one passage is ALL THE BIBLE HAS TO SAY ABOUT IT.

But the Bible is not that simple. Pretending that everything in the Bible is simple is a huge problem in our culture. If peope had any respect for the Historic Christian Faith they'd know that the Bible is a very complex book and you don't figure out the whole of any doctrine with a single passage.

Nobody took Christ's life from him. He laid it down. So what?

The Bible is almost NEVER that simple.

That's why we have seminaries. Theology is complex.

The same Bible says that MEN killed Christ.

The SAME Bible says that God killed Christ.

So now we have to go to work. It takes hours upon hours of study. We have to study the languages. We have to study the contexts. Wee have to study the biblical theology and the historical theology. It is back-breaking labor. It is almost NEVER as simple as quoting one or two verses and saying "THERE!"

It just is not.

 

[Winman]

:laugh: It just seemed appropriate. I think Luke needs a spanking actually. Since I'm old enough to be his mother, I figure who better to do it? :laugh:

Well, timing is everything, and your timing was perfect. :applause:

Sorry to derail the thread, but I got a real kick out of this!

 

[Luke2427]

this is outright heresy

John

Just saying it is so, doesn't make it so.

This is yet another unwarrented claim.

It is another outrageous remark totally barren of substantiation.

It is once again as if any one should believe it just because you say it.

Do you get this from the preachers in your movement? Is that what you are used to- emotional claims without logical substantion- without any arguments at all? Just hurling outrageous accusations and having people swallow them hook line and sinker?

Because you do this alot.

 

[blackbird]

It is not a good hermeneutic that pretends that since the Scripture affirms that Jesus laid down his life that NNE KILLED him.

Jesus laying down his life is not the whole story.

No one TOOK it from him- that does not mean by any means that no one killed him. It is more complicated than that.

Peter clearly says that he WAS killed.
Acts 2:23
this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

This is a common problem with debates on here. Some people get a proof text like "nobody takes my life from me- I lay it down" and then say- "THERE!! That settles it!" as if that one passage is ALL THE BIBLE HAS TO SAY ABOUT IT.

But the Bible is not that simple. Pretending that everything in the Bible is simple is a huge problem in our culture. If peope had any respect for the Historic Christian Faith they'd know that the Bible is a very complex book and you don't figure out the whole of any doctrine with a single passage.

Nobody took Christ's life from him. He laid it down. So what?

The Bible is almost NEVER that simple.

That's why we have seminaries. Theology is complex.

The same Bible says that MEN killed Christ.

The SAME Bible says that God killed Christ.

So now we have to go to work. It takes hours upon hours of study. We have to study the languages. We have to study the contexts. Wee have to study the biblical theology and the historical theology. It is back-breaking labor. It is almost NEVER as simple as quoting one or two verses and saying "THERE!"

It just is not.

Show us verse that teaches God killed Christ----if He did it had to be somewhat in the same fashion as Cain vs Able wouldn't it-----I mean, along the same lines as far as motive/method, etc

Then when you post the verse----post also your exegesis on the verse and chapter

 

[blackbird]

See----if what you say is right----God killed Christ

then it would stand to reason that it was not murder but suicide

If you believe that Jesus Christ is 100% God----God killed God--God took His own life

 

[preacher4truth]

God authored Salvation. All of it.

 

[Luke2427]

So has Jim Jones what?

Jim Jones read the Bible longer than I have been alive. So what?

There ar millions upon millions of heretics who've read the Bible that long.

How LONG you read it is no where near as important as how WELL you read it.

Proof that you do not read it as well as you should is found in your prooftexting on this thread.

If you think the passage about Jesus laying down his life undermines the idea that any one killed him- that proves you don't read it very well.

So if you read it this poorly for another thousand years you will still fail to understand it as well as the average 25 year old seminary student who knows HOW to read it.

 

[Luke2427]

See----if what you say is right----God killed Christ

then it would stand to reason that it was not murder but suicide

If you believe that Jesus Christ is 100% God----God killed God--God took His own life

It's not that simple. It is WAY more complex than all of that.

What you say does not stand to reason because there are SO MANY things you've failed to take into consideration here.

 

[Winman]

It is not a good hermeneutic that pretends that since the Scripture affirms that Jesus laid down his life that NNE KILLED him.

Jesus laying down his life is not the whole story.

No one TOOK it from him- that does not mean by any means that no one killed him. It is more complicated than that.

Peter clearly says that he WAS killed.
Acts 2:23
this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

What is poor hermeneutic is that you read into this verse more than it says.

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:


It doesn't say God killed Jesus, Peter said the Jews (ye) he was addressing killed Jesus. Read what the scriptures actually say and do not insert your assumptions into the text.

This is a common problem with debates on here. Some people get a proof text like "nobody takes my life from me- I lay it down" and then say- "THERE!! That settles it!" as if that one passage is ALL THE BIBLE HAS TO SAY ABOUT IT.

And you say God killed Jesus when the scriptures NEVER say that. Show any verse that says God killed Jesus.

But the Bible is not that simple. Pretending that everything in the Bible is simple is a huge problem in our culture. If peope had any respect for the Historic Christian Faith they'd know that the Bible is a very complex book and you don't figure out the whole of any doctrine with a single passage.

Actually, it is the scriptures themselves that say they are plain to them that understandeth.

Pro 8:9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

Nobody took Christ's life from him. He laid it down. So what?

The Bible is almost NEVER that simple.

That's why we have seminaries. Theology is complex.

Theology is more complex than the scriptures. The scriptures are plain and straightforward. Jesus spoke in the plain, ordinary language of the common people. It is pseudo-intellectuals that overcomplicate scripture.

The same Bible says that MEN killed Christ.

At least you got this right.

The SAME Bible says that God killed Christ.

The scriptures do not say this, show scripture that says this.

So now we have to go to work. It takes hours upon hours of study. It is almost NEVER as simple as quoting one or two verses and saying "THERE!"

It just is not.

This is true, but without the Holy Spirit no man can understand the scriptures properly. You can study until you are blue in the face and attend every seminary known to man, without the Spirit you will err.

 

[12strings]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke2427
It is not beyond the comprehension of millions, perhpas hundreds of millions of Christians who span the ages.

Scripture could not be more clear. It pleased the LORD to bruise him. Thou (God) hast made his soul an offering for sin.

Pilate and Herod did whatever God ordained to be done.

These are things the Scriptures affirm in no uncertain terms. He did it to glorify Christ and to ensure our salvation. Nothing could be nobler.

God killed Christ. He did it in various ways.

He planned it, ordained it, ordered the events so that it would come to pass, utilized the wicked hearts and hands of those who did the physical work of crucifying Jesus, etc...

To deny this, imo, is to embrace some erroneous preaching and teaching over the Word of God.

Of course doing this is very popular in some movements.

(FROM stillLearning)
this is outright heresy

John

Sorry, I'm going to have to defend Luke for once.

Take these verses:
-Is. 53:10 - 10 But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
-Acts 4:27-29 - 27 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
-Acts 2:23 - This Man, delivered over by the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

It is no heresy to look at these verses and say, "it sounds like God did this."

-God planned and foreknew the crucifixion.
-Jesus willingly gave up his own life.
-God poured out his wrath for the sins of the world on him, inflicting him with great suffering
-Men inflicted the wounds that led to Jesus' death.
-Jesus seemingly determined the moment of death, giving up his spirit.

The way Luke put it may not fit the way you would put it, but it is a valid interpretation of these verses, which at the very least seem to support his statements.