Did God Kill His own Son Upon The Cross?

[The Archangel]

It is not a good hermeneutic to ask "Did God kill Jesus" and expect to get a one-faceted answer.

Did I kill Jesus? Yes, by my sin. Did you (any of you) kill Jesus? Yes, by your sin. Did the Gentiles kill Jesus? Yes, the Romans crucified Him. Did the Jews kill Jesus? Yes, they delivered Him over to the Romans. Did God the Father kill Jesus? Yes:

[25] whom [Jesus] God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. [26] It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:25-26 ESV)
​

The answer is that we all killed Jesus in one way or another. But the ultimate "killer" of Jesus was, indeed, God the Father who put Him forward as a propitiation.

The participation of the Jews, the Romans, you, and me were all ordained (do not understand that to mean "caused") by God to bring about the death of Christ for God's intended purpose. But make no mistake, God is ultimately responsible for the death of Christ (who volunteered, by the way) because it was the Father who decided to forgive--and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin and the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sin.

The Archangel

 

[JesusFan]

Show us verse that teaches God killed Christ----if He did it had to be somewhat in the same fashion as Cain vs Able wouldn't it-----I mean, along the same lines as far as motive/method, etc

Then when you post the verse----post also your exegesis on the verse and chapter

God the Father ordained that His only begotten Son would come to earth and die as the atonement for the sins of all mankind , and to pay a definite price to have applied towards those whom God would elect unto eternal life in His Son...

prophet Isaiah stated that it pleased God to lay all of our inquities upon Him, and that He was bruised for our sakes....

hebrews said that the Son saw Himself as being prepared by God in his body to be the perfect sacrifice for our sins...

Quite clear that the Father "ordered" that His Son would die as the messiah/atoner, Son willingly agreed, and the HS involved in bring the Son to Earth, anoiting Him for His service, and raising Him back from the dead...

All 3 of the Godhead involved in this start to finish!

 

[Luke2427]

What is poor hermeneutic is that you read into this verse more than it says.

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:


It doesn't say God killed Jesus, Peter said the Jews (ye) he was addressing killed Jesus. Read what the scriptures actually say and do not insert your assumptions into the text

.

I didn't say anything about that verse proving that God killed Christ.

If you would read more thoroughly you would not be engrossed in such TERRIBLE error.

What the verse does is prove that Amy is wrong in this idea that NNE killed Christ because she found a proof text that says "No man takes my life from me but I lay it down myself."

She makes the error there that you make almost without ceasing in all of your posts.

She thinks a verse pulled out of context that is not compared to other SCripture proves ANYTHING. And it does not.

And you say God killed Jesus when the scriptures NEVER say that. Show any verse that says God killed Jesus

.

I gave three earlier.

Again- read more thoroughly.

Actually, it is the scriptures themselves that say they are plain to them that understandeth.

Pro 8:9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge

.

This is what you do constantly- take verses out of context and make them say something they do not say.

You would not do this if you had any training at all.

You have some good colleges and seminaries in your "movement".

Bob Jones would help you tremendously in the way you approach Scripture.

Temple would help you, too.

ANY training would fix the way you interpret SCripture.

I promose you EVERY ONE even here on bb who doesn't like me who has any REAL training would agree with me on this.

Theology is more complex than the scriptures

.

Theology is the study of God primarily from the Scriptures. Once again, if you had any training at all you'd know this.

As a matter of fact if you were preached to regularly by men who had training from good seminaries you'd know this.

The scriptures are plain and straightforward. Jesus spoke in the plain, ordinary language of the common people. It is pseudo-intellectuals that overcomplicate scripture.

Pseudo-intellectuals are people who think they know what they are talking about when they don't.
A pseudo-intellectual would be like a man speaking authoritatively on medicine who has no real training in medicine.

That is what you seem to do here.

 

[12strings]

It is not a good hermeneutic to ask "Did God kill Jesus" and expect to get a one-faceted answer.

Did I kill Jesus? Yes, by my sin. Did you (any of you) kill Jesus? Yes, by your sin. Did the Gentiles kill Jesus? Yes, the Romans crucified Him. Did the Jews kill Jesus? Yes, they delivered Him over to the Romans. Did God the Father kill Jesus? Yes:

[25] whom [Jesus] God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. [26] It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:25-26 ESV)
​

The answer is that we all killed Jesus in one way or another. But the ultimate "killer" of Jesus was, indeed, God the Father who put Him forward as a propitiation.

The participation of the Jews, the Romans, you, and me were all ordained (do not understand that to mean "caused") by God to bring about the death of Christ for God's intended purpose. But make no mistake, God is ultimately responsible for the death of Christ (who volunteered, by the way) because it was the Father who decided to forgive--and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin and the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sin.

The Archangel

Thank you Archangel for a simple, Biblically based argument that is void of any personal attacks and accusations of heresy.

How refreshing...even if you disagree with him.

 

[Amy.G]

Jim Jones read the Bible longer than I have been alive. So what?

There ar millions upon millions of heretics who've read the Bible that long.

How LONG you read it is no where near as important as how WELL you read it.

Proof that you do not read it as well as you should is found in your prooftexting on this thread.

If you think the passage about Jesus laying down his life undermines the idea that any one killed him- that proves you don't read it very well.

So if you read it this poorly for another thousand years you will still fail to understand it as well as the average 25 year old seminary student who knows HOW to read it.

You are so funny.

 

[Amy.G]

.
Again- read more thoroughly.
This is what you do constantly- take verses out of context and make them say something they do not say.

You would not do this if you had any training at all.

ANY training would fix the way you interpret SCripture.

I promose you EVERY ONE even here on bb who doesn't like me who has any REAL training would agree with me on this.

.

Theology is the study of God primarily from the Scriptures. Once again, if you had any training at all you'd know this.

As a matter of fact if you were preached to regularly by men who had training from good seminaries you'd know this.

Pseudo-intellectuals are people who think they know what they are talking about when they don't.
A pseudo-intellectual would be like a man speaking authoritatively on medicine who has no real training in medicine.

That is what you seem to do here.

Yeah you dumb hick! Get some training and you'll know as much as Luke. :laugh:

 

[webdog]

Sorry, I'm going to have to defend Luke for once.

Take these verses:
-Is. 53:10 - 10 But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
-Acts 4:27-29 - 27 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
-Acts 2:23 - This Man, delivered over by the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

It is no heresy to look at these verses and say, "it sounds like God did this."

-God planned and foreknew the crucifixion.
-Jesus willingly gave up his own life.
-God poured out his wrath for the sins of the world on him, inflicting him with great suffering
-Men inflicted the wounds that led to Jesus' death.
-Jesus seemingly determined the moment of death, giving up his spirit.

The way Luke put it may not fit the way you would put it, but it is a valid interpretation of these verses, which at the very least seem to support his statements.

I see nothing there to be taken literally (Jesus was crucified, not crushed)...and God is not bound by time, so anything linear is man's understanding and figurrative.

 

[12strings]

I see nothing there to be taken literally (Jesus was crucified, not crushed)...and God is not bound by time, so anything linear is man's understanding and figurrative.

I'm not sure I understand exactly what part of my post you are disagreeing with...or if parts of these 3 verses are figurative; what then is the actual meaning, if not what they actually say?

 

[zrs6v4]

was it something that he direct caused, or did He allow it to com to pass?

I'm way late on this discussion, but:

God allowed it, but sovereignly brought it t pass. He did not just sit back and watch it happened nor did He come and indwell the lost to cause them to fight against Himself. He both allowed it to happen and Jesus offered Himself up literally. In His providence God had a complete control over every event building up to this proper timing of Jesus first coming.

1. We know it couldn't have happened solely based on God being passive and seeing it happen from the day of the fall.

2. we know God did not come and directly cause this evil rejection within the Jews or any evil building up to this event.

3. So it is safe to say He willed it, indirectly caused it, allowed it, and wanted it to happen so He could provide a way to make salvation possible so that His grace would be realized in full. Jesus' knowing the eternal decrees of God knew before He came why He came. He willingly stepped into this dark world in accordance with His Father's (and His) decree to pay for sin. It wasn't just a fluke or an accident God saw after the fall that He said, "Oh wow that is a good path to allow to happen and hey cool I can also forgive sin because the cards fell that way"..

Does that make sense?

 

[quantumfaith]

I'm way late on this discussion, but:

God allowed it, but sovereignly brought it t pass. He did not just sit back and watch it happened nor did He come and indwell the lost to cause them to fight against Himself. He both allowed it to happen and Jesus offered Himself up literally. In His providence God had a complete control over every event building up to this proper timing of Jesus first coming.

1. We know it couldn't have happened solely based on God being passive and seeing it happen from the day of the fall.

2. we know God did not come and directly cause this evil rejection within the Jews or any evil building up to this event.

3. So it is safe to say He willed it, indirectly caused it, allowed it, and wanted it to happen so He could provide a way to make salvation possible so that His grace would be realized in full. Jesus' knowing the eternal decrees of God knew before He came why He came. He willingly stepped into this dark world in accordance with His Father's (and His) decree to pay for sin. It wasn't just a fluke or an accident God saw after the fall that He said, "Oh wow that is a good path to allow to happen and hey cool I can also forgive sin because the cards fell that way"..

Does that make sense?

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[webdog]

I'm not sure I understand exactly what part of my post you are disagreeing with...or if parts of these 3 verses are figurative; what then is the actual meaning, if not what they actually say?

Circumstantial actions leading to the murder of someone cannot be viewed as being on par as committing the actual act. Scripture states murder is a sin. God did not kill Christ, humans killed Christ while being permitted by both the Father and Jesus.

 

[blackbird]

God KILLED Christ. The Bible is not unclear on this.

6 pages is the length of this thread so far and so far YOU have not given one single solitary verse and have not brought to bear any one single solid passage to exegete for us concerning the issue you raise above

Gracious, Luke!!! Do you need any of us to do the "Vulcan Mind Probe" on you or something??????:smilewinkgrin:

 

[blackbird]

Circumstantial actions leading to the murder of someone cannot be viewed as being on par as committing the actual act. Scripture states murder is a sin. God did not kill Christ, humans killed Christ while being permitted by both the Father and Jesus.

Thank you, Webby!!!! You took the words right out of Luke's mouth!!!:thumbs::laugh::laugh:

 

[Luke2427]

6 pages is the length of this thread so far and so far YOU have not given one single solitary verse and have not brought to bear any one single solid passage to exegete for us concerning the issue you raise above

Gracious, Luke!!! Do you need any of us to do the "Vulcan Mind Probe" on you or something??????:smilewinkgrin:

I gave three verses right out of the gate.

You might have missed them but they are there and there are many more to give.

 

[blackbird]

Thank you, Webby!!!! You took the words right out of Luke's mouth!!!:thumbs::laugh:

I meant WEB DOGGY DOG!!!!!!!:flower::flower:

 

[zrs6v4]

I gave three verses right out of the gate.

You might have missed them but they are there and there are many more to give.

Im not sure if your terminology "God killed Christ" is being understood but I believe I know what you mean, if not correct me. You mean God sovereignly chose and brought Christs humiliating death to pass by secondary means. In a sense we can blame God for crushing His own Son but yet it was others who did it by their own evil will. God also rules them in a mysterious way so in that sense, if we wish, we can blame Him. I agree with you if this is what you mean.

 

[blackbird]

I gave three verses right out of the gate.

You might have missed them but they are there and there are many more to give.

WHICH three verse, Luke----I went back and looked and you GIVE NO VERSES!!!

What are they teaching you boys over at that seminary nowadays???? You may have come out of the gate but you ain't ridin' no horse!!!!:type:

 

[Amy.G]

I gave three verses right out of the gate.

You might have missed them but they are there and there are many more to give.

I went through every post of this thread and the only verse you posted was this:

Peter clearly says that he WAS killed.
Acts 2:23
this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Where does it say that "God killed Jesus" and where are the other 2 verses you claim to have posted?

 

[Luke2427]

I went through every post of this thread and the only verse you posted was this:


Where does it say that "God killed Jesus" and where are the other 2 verses you claim to have posted?

Check out the opening three lines of post 21.

I quote and paraphrase three different verses there that I believed were so well known that putting the up the references should be totally unnecessary on a forum debating such a topic as this.

 

[Luke2427]

Im not sure if your terminology "God killed Christ" is being understood but I believe I know what you mean, if not correct me. You mean God sovereignly chose and brought Christs humiliating death to pass by secondary means. In a sense we can blame God for crushing His own Son but yet it was others who did it by their own evil will. God also rules them in a mysterious way so in that sense, if we wish, we can blame Him. I agree with you if this is what you mean.

That's it.

I might not employ the word "blame" but otherwise I think you nailed it.