Did He Really Know You?

[Scott Downey]

WOW!!!!
You sound just like an atheist who hates God (who doesn't exist!) so much he complains about everything He (God) does.
I don't know your relation with God, but you are awfully brazen to LIMIT God's choices to what YOU consider the only options.
IIRC, Jesus had something to say about those who thought they were so smart!?!?
Again, I don't know you, but you seem to be a perfect example of an old adage:
"He's been educated beyond his intelligence."

That is a legitimate question to ask in this debate forum. Something people should not find objectionable to answer. Obviously there is no random chance.

If you have been given to Christ as His children, Hebrews 2:13, you exist to be a part of the family of God, that is one of your purposes.

Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

You would be one of those many brethren, adopted into the family of God according to His purposes.

 

[1689Dave]

Do any noncalvinists really believe that anyone today was on His mind? That He truly has a specific purpose and plan (not a generic one) for any individual's life?

Some will say yes because of His omniscience, His "looking down the corridors of time" (LOL). But you need to be careful, because asserting He knew each one who was conceived also means that He knew which ones whose conception was thwarted, meaning one of two things.

1) You're here by happenstance, a fortuitous turn of events influencing the plans (or failures) of corrupt individuals exercising their free will. Meaning, He didn't really plan for your existence, He just knew the roll of the dice and kinda dropped you into His plan, for good or for ill depending on the degree inherent merit you possess by nature and by which you made the decision to choose Him. (And you are kinda capitulating to Calvinism because His knowing meant it was His choice in allowing one He knew would exist to be prevented by the corruption of men, so He's still sovereign in salvation.)

2) You have to adopt the quasi paganistic view of God in time who cannot tell the future.

For you to exist, each union of each sperm and ovum in your family tree must have fallen out precisely according to God's plan. Every free choice in marriage partners, including the events leading up to the moment of conception. Or every evil act as with David and Bathsheba that eventually produced Jesus. Or accidents, wars, diseases and violent deaths, that placed someone different in your family tree, must be under God's direct control. Or you would not exist. From untold trillions of sperm egg unions, each producing a different person, all falling-out according to his eternal decree for you to be reading this now. Think what this means if God wrote your name in the book of life before the foundation of the world.

 

[Aaron]

I don't know your relation with God, but you are awfully brazen to LIMIT God's choices to what YOU consider the only options.

Do tell. Do you know another option?

 

[Aaron]

We were chosen in Him from before the foundation of the world, which is when our purpose was given to us, note 2 Timothy 1:9, but we were created in time as new creations in Christ at the time of God's choosing for us to fulfil His purposes, note Galatians 1:15-16, God chooses the time for when He reveals Christ in us. This is a very important concept as it gives meaning to our supernatural existence at the hand of God our Creator.

2 Timothy 1
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher [c]of the Gentiles. 12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

Galatians 1
11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.
13 For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. 14 And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

And Ephesians 1
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

Let's keep the distinction between the old and new creations. My question is concerning one's physical birth and life. Did it happen by chance, or was it determined by God?

 

[Scott Downey]

Let's keep the distinction between the old and new creations. My question is concerning one's physical birth and life. Did it happen by chance, or was it determined by God?

Of course not chance at all. Since we see Ephesians 1 says we were chosen in Him from before the earth's foundation, means we could not be random chance creations of God. God creates everything with with purpose, especially so people who is said of them are made in the image of God.

 

[37818]

Do any noncalvinists really believe that anyone today was on His mind? That He truly has a specific purpose and plan (not a generic one) for any individual's life?

Some will say yes because of His omniscience, His "looking down the corridors of time" (LOL). But you need to be careful, because asserting He knew each one who was conceived also means that He knew which ones whose conception was thwarted, meaning one of two things.

1) You're here by happenstance, a fortuitous turn of events influencing the plans (or failures) of corrupt individuals exercising their free will. Meaning, He didn't really plan for your existence, He just knew the roll of the dice and kinda dropped you into His plan, for good or for ill depending on the degree inherent merit you possess by nature and by which you made the decision to choose Him. (And you are kinda capitulating to Calvinism because His knowing meant it was His choice in allowing one He knew would exist to be prevented by the corruption of men, so He's still sovereign in salvation.)

2) You have to adopt the quasi paganistic view of God in time who cannot tell the future.

God is omniscient, He cannot not know.

 

[37818]

Let's keep the distinction between the old and new creations. My question is concerning one's physical birth and life. Did it happen by chance, or was it determined by God?

You can call it what you want. In God's omniscience He cannot not know. Does not mean God chose it for you, though He could of. Determined is too ambiguous in meaning.

 

[Aaron]

You can call it what you want. In God's omniscience He cannot not know. Does not mean God chose it for you, though He could of. Determined is too ambiguous in meaning.

"Determined" is not ambiguous at all. It means that He saw to it that you would be born, not merely saw that you would.

Not talking about omniscience. Talking about will.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

For you to exist, each union of each sperm and ovum in your family tree must have fallen out precisely according to God's plan. Every free choice in marriage partners, including the events leading up to the moment of conception. Or every evil act as with David and Bathsheba that eventually produced Jesus. Or accidents, wars, diseases and violent deaths, that placed someone different in your family tree, must be under God's direct control. Or you would not exist. From untold trillions of sperm egg unions, each producing a different person, all falling-out according to his eternal decree for you to be reading this now. Think what this means if God wrote your name in the book of life before the foundation of the world.

I like your reasoning, but for all to be decreed from the beginning makes God the author of sin. Things must be more complicated.

 

[just-want-peace]

Do tell. Do you know another option?

Nope!!
But whether I do or not does not limit whether God does!?!?

 

[church mouse guy]

Do any noncalvinists really believe that anyone today was on His mind? That He truly has a specific purpose and plan (not a generic one) for any individual's life?

Some will say yes because of His omniscience, His "looking down the corridors of time" (LOL). But you need to be careful, because asserting He knew each one who was conceived also means that He knew which ones whose conception was thwarted, meaning one of two things.

1) You're here by happenstance, a fortuitous turn of events influencing the plans (or failures) of corrupt individuals exercising their free will. Meaning, He didn't really plan for your existence, He just knew the roll of the dice and kinda dropped you into His plan, for good or for ill depending on the degree inherent merit you possess by nature and by which you made the decision to choose Him. (And you are kinda capitulating to Calvinism because His knowing meant it was His choice in allowing one He knew would exist to be prevented by the corruption of men, so He's still sovereign in salvation.)

2) You have to adopt the quasi paganistic view of God in time who cannot tell the future.

I saw Sue Dodge once here in Indianapolis and spoke with her briefly.

That song was a response to Scorsese's film about the last temptation of Christ when He was allegedly thinking about having sex with Mary Magdalene again.

The song is saying that Jesus was thinking about my salvation by being washed in His blood.

God knew before He created the universe what everything would be like. Lester Roloff used to say did it ever occur to you that nothing ever occurred to God? And, no, I am not a Calvinist or a neo-Calvinist but a so-called traditionalist Southern Baptist, sometimes called a mild Calvinist.

 

[Aaron]

I like your reasoning, but for all to be decreed from the beginning makes God the author of sin.

No it doesn't. The Father of Lies was there in the beginning. Genesis is about the creation of the heavens and the earth, not angels. So forget all that. My question is about you.

You are here. Was it by chance or by God's will?

 

[37818]

"Determined" is not ambiguous at all. It means that He saw to it that you would be born, not merely saw that you would.

Not talking about omniscience. Talking about will.

What is God's will in the matter of being known by God to be one of His? Matthew 7:21-23, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

 

[church mouse guy]

We are here because we were in Adam when he was created. God knew that and allowed it. God created it so there was no chance involved since a person's presence is a result of what God did. However, God did not want Adam to sin.

 

[George Antonios]

I'll never understand the zeal and effort Calvinists put into convincing non-Calvinists to change their "heretical" beliefs, given their view of predestination. Relax brethren, the Sovereign God will change us or not depending on his predetermined will for us. Repent of trying to play God, stop trying to correct us, you're practically denying Calvinism in doing so. Some of us were predestinated to be non-Calvinists.

 

[Benjamin]

You're still avoiding the question.

There are only two options. You're here by God's determination, or you're here by chance. Which is it?

Hey Aaron, have you stopped beating your wife yet?
Yes or no?
Which is it?
Don't avoid the question!

 

[ivdavid]

I'll never understand the zeal and effort Calvinists put into convincing non-Calvinists to change their "heretical" beliefs, given their view of predestination. Relax brethren, the Sovereign God will change us or not depending on his predetermined will for us. Repent of trying to play God, stop trying to correct us, you're practically denying Calvinism in doing so. Some of us were predestinated to be non-Calvinists.

They're technically denying high calvinism in doing so. Calvinism itself holds men as participants in what's predestined, used as instruments. So in a sense, they're predestined to continue correcting incorrect beliefs

To be fair though, even armianism actually believes everything is foreordained by God - the difference lies only in whether God foreordains without considering man's self-determinism or in factoring that too. Since God alone is omniscient, exhortation even when you believe otherwise is totally permissible as in Heb 6:9.

 

[George Antonios]

They're technically denying high calvinism in doing so. Calvinism itself holds men as participants in what's predestined, used as instruments. So in a sense, they're predestined to continue correcting incorrect beliefs

To be fair though, even armianism actually believes everything is foreordained by God - the difference lies only in whether God foreordains without considering man's self-determinism or in factoring that too. Since God alone is omniscient, exhortation even when you believe otherwise is totally permissible as in Heb 6:9.

"everything" is definitely not foreordained of God; some things are, but not everything.
I never read a Bible verse that said that God has foreordained every last thing.
(note, I need a Bible answer, not a philosophical answer, to believe otherwise).

 

[ivdavid]

"everything" is definitely not foreordained of God; some things are, but not everything.
I never read a Bible verse that said that God has foreordained every last thing.
(note, I need a Bible answer, not a philosophical answer, to believe otherwise).

I think you're reading beyond what I meant - because I thought i was agreeing with you and trying to find middle ground with the calvinists. Like I said, even classical Arminianism had no issues affirming that God foreordains all things in the sense of Him counselling to permit human freewill which He foreknows/foresees to come to pass according to His purpose and pleasure. The alternative would have resorted to open theism, sliding down a slippery slope. The Scriptural basis for this itself would be Isa 46:10-11 echoed again in the "all things" of Eph 1:11.

 

[George Antonios]

I think you're reading beyond what I meant - because I thought i was agreeing with you and trying to find middle ground with the calvinists. Like I said, even classical Arminianism had no issues affirming that God foreordains all things in the sense of Him counselling to permit human freewill which He foreknows/foresees to come to pass according to His purpose and pleasure. The alternative would have resorted to open theism, sliding down a slippery slope. The Scriptural basis for this itself would be Isa 46:10-11 echoed again in the "all things" of Eph 1:11.

It sounds to me like foreknowledge and foreordination are being confounded, no?
Maybe I'm missing what you're saying. Are you saying foreknowledge = foreordination ?