Did Jesus die for the sin of unbelief?

[Barry Johnson]

Actually, it's all in Ephesians 2:1-10.
In vs 1, the Greek word for dead, means to miss the mark so badly that you die. Later when Paul tells us we are made alive, that Greek word means that God took you and caused you to hit the mark and even surpass the mark.
So, if you actually study this passage and the Greek words used, you will see that the Bible very clearly supports what I stated.
Thanks

1¶And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4¶But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
I believe every verse . There is no mention of the death of christ the resurrection, Faith , believing, Holy Spirit so its not a detailed blow by blow account of how we were saved . This is talking to already saved people .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Saved Gentiles are now Israel.

Thats too far fetched to respond to ..You have to ignore half the bible to come up with that ( with respect ) .

 

[Barry Johnson]

I believe that the "Faith of Jesus Christ" is "HIS faith" planted and living inside of me.

• I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. [Eze 36:26 NIV]
• But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. [Eph 2:4-5 NIV]
• for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose. [Phl 2:13 NIV]

Eze36 is ISRAEL
26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28and ye shall dwell in the land i gave to your fathers and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
29I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
30And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
31Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
32Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O HOUSE OF ISRAEL .
This is not individual western calvinists in 2020 .

 

[Barry Johnson]

I feel you are in error... To miss the mark implies you were trying to hit it... Dead is as dead as the one in the cemetery as we speak... Quicken mean to make alive and you do not quicken yourself, can't, you are DEAD!... God does what you do not have the ability nor desire to do... Until he changes you within you are as dead as those in the graveyard... Then and only then do you press toward any mark, but the only one who ever reached it was Jesus Christ... Until God awakens the dead to the new birth and all are not called, they are as dead as John Brown's body that lies a mouldering in the grave... Brother Glen

I would disagree with the hindu concept of 'awakening ' This is at the heart of Augustines, gnosctism.

 

[JonC]

Due to the length of this thread it will be closed sometime after 10 pm EST. Please feel to continue the discussion on a new thread.

 

[tyndale1946]

Due to the length of this thread it will be closed sometime after 10 pm EST. Please feel to continue the discussion on a new thread.

Here comes Mr. party pooper... You know I love you Jon but I always wanted to say that... Brother Glen

Btw... You know I wouldn't dare say that, to Squire, or Dr. Bob or Salty

 

[Sai]

Saved Gentiles are now Israel.

So salvation is only for Israel. Good working that out. Lol

 

[Sai]

Due to the length of this thread it will be closed sometime after 10 pm EST. Please feel to continue the discussion on a new thread.

Thank God it’s closed. The natives were getting restless.

 

[atpollard]

This is not individual western calvinists in 2020 .

So God lied. ... because it also wasn't the "brood of vipers" that Christ found waiting in the First Century or the Unfaithful Bride that God cursed through his prophets.

It could be the TRUE VINE, pruned and grafted by the VINE DRESSER ... but you say no, so God must be wrong and you must be right. There can be no other reasonable explanation, can there?

I am still waiting for you to explain your statement that the people that repented and were baptized and received the Holy Spirit as Peter commanded, were not seeking and did not get saved. When will you answer what I am actually asking you?

 

[MB]

I believe that the "Faith of Jesus Christ" is "HIS faith" planted and living inside of me.

• I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. [Eze 36:26 NIV]
• But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. [Eph 2:4-5 NIV]
• for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose. [Phl 2:13 NIV]

Maybe you could show a few verses that show what you claim above. Because what you have shown gives no such indication that He plants His faith inside of us. Not to mention if this is true we would have perfect faith from the moment it happened. We do not have perfect faith. We cannot heal the sick or raise the dead. We cannot resurrect our selves. These are things of perfect faith. I once thought what you think about this verse. However what is planted in our selves is the seed or the Word of God. Which is what makes our faith grow and leads us to Salvation.
MB

 

[Barry Johnson]

So God lied. ... because it also wasn't the "brood of vipers" that Christ found waiting in the First Century or the Unfaithful Bride that God cursed through his prophets.

It could be the TRUE VINE, pruned and grafted by the VINE DRESSER ... but you say no, so God must be wrong and you must be right. There can be no other reasonable explanation, can there?

I am still waiting for you to explain your statement that the people that repented and were baptized and received the Holy Spirit as Peter commanded, were not seeking and did not get saved. When will you answer what I am actually asking you?

What do you mean ' they were not seeking and did not get saved ? you've lost me ?

 

[AustinC]

1¶And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4¶But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
I believe every verse . There is no mention of the death of christ the resurrection, Faith , believing, Holy Spirit so its not a detailed blow by blow account of how we were saved . This is talking to already saved people .

Yep. Paul tells us where we were. (We missed the mark and were dead). And Paul tells us where we are. (God made us alive, He took us and brought us to the mark and beyond.)
It's all God.
You and I had zero faith or capacity to generate faith until God chose, by grace, to save us and give us the faith to believe.

 

[atpollard]

However what is planted in our selves is the seed or the Word of God. Which is what makes our faith grow and leads us to Salvation.

My turn to ask you for the verse that teaches this.

 

[AustinC]

I feel you are in error... To miss the mark implies you were trying to hit it... Dead is as dead as the one in the cemetery as we speak... Quicken mean to make alive and you do not quicken yourself, can't, you are DEAD!... God does what you do not have the ability nor desire to do... Until he changes you within you are as dead as those in the graveyard... Then and only then do you press toward any mark, but the only one who ever reached it was Jesus Christ... Until God awakens the dead to the new birth and all are not called, they are as dead as John Brown's body that lies a mouldering in the grave... Brother Glen

We all strived to please God in our flesh. We attempt it. We fail miserably and miss the mark. We miss so badly that we were dead in our trespasses and sins. This is what Paul is conveying in the first verse of Ephesians 2.
Indeed, no one can make oneself alive, therefore only God can make us alive and cause us to not only hit the mark, but to surpass it. This is why God has ordained good works for us, precisely because God has already brought us beyond the mark.

 

[atpollard]

What do you mean ' they were not seeking and did not get saved ? you've lost me ?

One more time, from the top ...

[Act 2:37-39 NIV]

37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."​

Do you see Acts 2:38 to gentiies? I believe this is to Israel as thats definitely not the order of salvation for the church age . The hearers ask " what must we do " not " what must we do to be saved " .

The instructions from Peter result in receiving the Holy Spirit. Are you really of the opinion that unsaved people repent, are baptized and receive the Holy Spirit? Paul goes on to later explain in great detail that Jew or Gentile, all are saved by faith ... just like Abraham was.

You are making a distinction without a difference.

 

[JD731]

Of all the theological disagreements between Christians, Limited vs Unlimited Atonement always amused me the most. I came to believe the other four points of the "Doctrines of Grace" (TULIP) before I had ever heard of Calvin or Arminius ... just from reading scripture and finding the actual words disagreed with some of what I was being taught at a Church founded from the Wesleyan Holiness Movement (another term that I didn't know at the time).

My original view on atonement stopped at the realization that Christ had died for me and my sins (a point on which Scripture is very clear). The question of what other sins he might have died for and whether he had died for sins that would not ultimately be forgiven, never entered my mind.

Having invested time and effort studying the question of Atonement, the only thing that I am absolutely sure of is this: If someone were able to present absolutely flawless hermeneutics and exegesis and provide an unassailable scriptural and theological proof for either Limited Atonement or Unlimited Atonement (or any other view of Atonement) ... we would still have the cart pushing the horse down the street. God is under no obligation to shape His salvation plan based on our understanding and whose sis (and which sins) Jesus "became" as he was led to that cross is completely HIS BUSINESS and way above our pay grade.

So by all means, read, study, debate and enjoy Atonement ... but never for a moment think that our opinions really matter. The horse pulls the cart, the cart does not push the horse, and God saves whom he saves, how he saves them, irresepective of our opinions on how he should do it.

God Bless all.

Our opinions may not matter to God but what we teach does. When you say Christians disagree on whether the atonement is limited or unlimited it makes me think that Christians do not disagree on that doctrine. Religious people disagrees on that point. Christians believe God and the words he says. Some things are fundamental to the Christian faith and the atonement is just one of many things that Calvinists denies.I could post 50 verses that are clear and simple that the Reformed says are not true on the surface.or they put a bent on. While our Lord Jesus paid the sin debt on the tree the record is God’s. It is he who justifies.

Romans 8:33-34
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

He justifies those who believe what he says.

Romans 4:23-25
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

It was God the Father who raised Jesus from the dead Gal 1:1

God does not justify anyone who does not believe what he says. Calvinists May say they believe in Jesus and even that he died on the cross and rose from the dead but they do not believe what God says about it. They believe what men say about it and that is different than what God says about it. There is not a single place in the scriptures that says the atonement is limited to a certain few Reformed believers, yet that is what they believe. They are not believing God about it so who are they believing? God addresses full atonement in several places in the scriptures but one of the clearest things he says is that Jesus Christ took away the sin of the world when he died on the cross. God did say that. He said he is not imputing sin to the sinner while he is living because he was fully satisfied with the sacrifice that was made on behalf of men by his Son on the cross. The Reformed does not believe the clear and plain statement that Jesus Christ put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. This is not a trifling disagreement between Christians. If God looks at the sacrifice of Jesus Christ as putting away sin then he has been reconciled to men and any sinner hearing this wonderful message about what Jesus did for us has an open invitation to come to God through him and God has said that he will receive any and all who will come. That is the invitation of God the Father that he has put in the record. Men who denies this are not justified because they do not believe what God says.

The devil is subtle. It is tragic that believers will trim the message to accept those who do not believe and who confuse the simple things of God when we aught to be calling on them to repent and be saved. Atonement is not salvation. Atonement is the act of God in dealing with sin, the one thing that separates God and men. Men have been desperately wicked since the cross but God has not showed up one time to judge men for their wickedness. He has a time appointed when he will show up and he has warned us about it but he is not imputing sin now and the worse sinner can repent and God will receive him on the merits of Jesus Christ. Men’s sins will be waiting on them when they die if they do not get saved while they live.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto man once to die, but after this the judgment.

 

[JonC]

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