Did Jesus die for the sin of unbelief?

[MB]

Barry, only people who need a crutch for their doctrine lean on "Calvinism" as their main reason to hate scripture. You lean hard on it because you cannot refute the scripture provided against your argument. So, rather than argue against the truths of scripture, you just claim your opponent is a "Calvinist," and then you argue against the imaginary ideas you have constructed in your own head, while you ignore the scripture provided to refute your opinions.
Why would anyone have a conversation with you when you are involved in an imaginary argument against a John Calvin you have created within your own mind? So, go on and argue with your imaginary opponent, which you have constructed and no one else knows.

We don't lean on crutches Austin we lean on Christ alone and that blows your theory out of the water. You lean on Calvin a man who believed the Catholic Church is the only true church even after his reformation. Calvinist are warmed over Catholics.
MB

 

[atpollard]

Of all the theological disagreements between Christians, Limited vs Unlimited Atonement always amused me the most. I came to believe the other four points of the "Doctrines of Grace" (TULIP) before I had ever heard of Calvin or Arminius ... just from reading scripture and finding the actual words disagreed with some of what I was being taught at a Church founded from the Wesleyan Holiness Movement (another term that I didn't know at the time).

My original view on atonement stopped at the realization that Christ had died for me and my sins (a point on which Scripture is very clear). The question of what other sins he might have died for and whether he had died for sins that would not ultimately be forgiven, never entered my mind.

Having invested time and effort studying the question of Atonement, the only thing that I am absolutely sure of is this: If someone were able to present absolutely flawless hermeneutics and exegesis and provide an unassailable scriptural and theological proof for either Limited Atonement or Unlimited Atonement (or any other view of Atonement) ... we would still have the cart pushing the horse down the street. God is under no obligation to shape His salvation plan based on our understanding and whose sis (and which sins) Jesus "became" as he was led to that cross is completely HIS BUSINESS and way above our pay grade.

So by all means, read, study, debate and enjoy Atonement ... but never for a moment think that our opinions really matter. The horse pulls the cart, the cart does not push the horse, and God saves whom he saves, how he saves them, irresepective of our opinions on how he should do it.

God Bless all.

 

[MB]

Of all the theological disagreements between Christians, Limited vs Unlimited Atonement always amused me the most. I came to believe the other four points of the "Doctrines of Grace" (TULIP) before I had ever heard of Calvin or Arminius ... just from reading scripture and finding the actual words disagreed with some of what I was being taught at a Church founded from the Wesleyan Holiness Movement (another term that I didn't know at the time).

My original view on atonement stopped at the realization that Christ had died for me and my sins (a point on which Scripture is very clear). The question of what other sins he might have died for and whether he had died for sins that would not ultimately be forgiven, never entered my mind.

Having invested time and effort studying the question of Atonement, the only thing that I am absolutely sure of is this: If someone were able to present absolutely flawless hermeneutics and exegesis and provide an unassailable scriptural and theological proof for either Limited Atonement or Unlimited Atonement (or any other view of Atonement) ... we would still have the cart pushing the horse down the street. God is under no obligation to shape His salvation plan based on our understanding and whose sis (and which sins) Jesus "became" as he was led to that cross is completely HIS BUSINESS and way above our pay grade.

So by all means, read, study, debate and enjoy Atonement ... but never for a moment think that our opinions really matter. The horse pulls the cart, the cart does not push the horse, and God saves whom he saves, how he saves them, irresepective of our opinions on how he should do it.

God Bless all.

The Bible tells us How we are saved. It's called Trust, Faith, Hope, and Grace. Calvinist seem to ignore the first three.
MB

 

[Barry Johnson]

Barry, only people who need a crutch for their doctrine lean on "Calvinism" as their main reason to hate scripture. You lean hard on it because you cannot refute the scripture provided against your argument. So, rather than argue against the truths of scripture, you just claim your opponent is a "Calvinist," and then you argue against the imaginary ideas you have constructed in your own head, while you ignore the scripture provided to refute your opinions.
Why would anyone have a conversation with you when you are involved in an imaginary argument against a John Calvin you have created within your own mind? So, go on and argue with your imaginary opponent, which you have constructed and no one else knows.

Not so . As an evangelist on the streets for many years my main challenge is not always from atheists . We have Jehovah witnesses, Catholics, Mormons , SDA , and Calvinsts to contend with whist preaching. I've had to learn about these beliefs from scratch. Calvinism isn't just a harmless addition to Christianity , its as wrong as any other system you your self would come up against ( Maybe its Catholicism, I don't know ) take the 5 points of the system . They are not just another way of looking at the scriptures. They are completely false . Which I do not say out of any hate because I don't like it . I see it as false as I see Catholicism is false . There is nothing useful about Calvinism . it doesn't do anything.

 

[AustinC]

We don't lean on crutches Austin we lean on Christ alone and that blows your theory out of the water. You lean on Calvin a man who believed the Catholic Church is the only true church even after his reformation. Calvinist are warmed over Catholics.
MB

Yet, you rarely argue regarding scripture alone. Instead, you constantly insert Calvin, despite the fact that your opponent is making a biblical point.
Therefore, you are leaning on a crutch of anti-Calvin and not on Christ at all.
So, your assertion about Christ alone is not true.

 

[AustinC]

Not so . As an evangelist on the streets for many years my main challenge is not always from atheists . We have Jehovah witnesses, Catholics, Mormons , SDA , and Calvinsts to contend with whist preaching. I've had to learn about these beliefs from scratch. Calvinism isn't just a harmless addition to Christianity , its as wrong as any other system you your self would come up against ( Maybe its Catholicism, I don't know ) take the 5 points of the system . They are not just another way of looking at the scriptures. They are completely false . Which I do not say out of any hate because I don't like it . I see it as false as I see Catholicism is false . There is nothing useful about Calvinism . it doesn't do anything.

Barry, you bring it up, not others. Stay focused on scripture.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Barry, you bring it up, not others. Stay focused on scripture.

Name your scripture that you think supports Calvinism and its easily shown false.

 

[Barry Johnson]

“And the LORD thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” Deuteronomy 30:6 (NCPB) This is the New Birth in OT terms.

For ISRAEL, look at the surrounding verses .

 

[MB]

Yet, you rarely argue regarding scripture alone. Instead, you constantly insert Calvin, despite the fact that your opponent is making a biblical point.
Therefore, you are leaning on a crutch of anti-Calvin and not on Christ at all.
So, your assertion about Christ alone is not true.

Your wrong I lean on Christ.
MB

 

[Sai]

Christ removed the unbelievers and added believing Gentiles in their place when he abolished circumcision on the cross.

My statement stands unopposed. TY

 

[atpollard]

The Bible tells us How we are saved. It's called Trust, Faith, Hope, and Grace. Calvinist seem to ignore the first three.
MB

Balderdash ... lies and d@mn lies. I ignore nothing in scripture (except the genealogies that just put me to sleep).

Nobody works harder to understand the meaning of scripture than Particular Baptists and that is PRECISELY because what Holy Scripture says rubs "human sensibilities" the wrong way. Don't you think that we WANT to believe that GOD loves everyone and nobody is really going to hell unless the are super bad ... like Hitler and Satan? Unfortunately, that just isn't what Scripture tells us about God. God is not just the god of purring kittens and rainbows and little girls playing with flowers.

So we tell you what God says about himself in HIS Bible and we are accused of following the teaching of man and making God into a monster. I am sorry if the God that is is not the god that you dream he should be ... but changing God is really way beyond my pay grade. I just share what God said and you are responsible with what you do with that information. I am not your mother, so it is not MY job to raise you.

Since you chose to twist my tail, is this how to be saved?

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. [Rom 10:9-10 NIV]

How about this, is this how to be saved?

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. [Eph 2:1-10 NIV]


And will following this advice from Peter lead one to being saved?

When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call." [Act 2:37-39 NIV]


As for me and my house, we believe all of these verses and many more. Now please stop telling lies about me.

 

[atpollard]

We don't lean on crutches Austin we lean on Christ alone and that blows your theory out of the water.

Christ alone saves ... no repentance, no faith, no belief, no perseverance. I do not think that you actually believe that or you would be a Particular Baptist (who believe that all of those other things come from God, too.) You likely believe that YOUR belief is importance and YOUR decision to repent is important and YOUR faith saves you if YOU persevere ... which is not "Christ alone".

 

[Barry Johnson]

Balderdash ... lies and d@mn lies. I ignore nothing in scripture (except the genealogies that just put me to sleep).

Nobody works harder to understand the meaning of scripture than Particular Baptists and that is PRECISELY because what Holy Scripture says rubs "human sensibilities" the wrong way. Don't you think that we WANT to believe that GOD loves everyone and nobody is really going to hell unless the are super bad ... like Hitler and Satan? Unfortunately, that just isn't what Scripture tells us about God. God is not just the god of purring kittens and rainbows and little girls playing with flowers.

So we tell you what God says about himself in HIS Bible and we are accused of following the teaching of man and making God into a monster. I am sorry if the God that is is not the god that you dream he should be ... but changing God is really way beyond my pay grade. I just share what God said and you are responsible with what you do with that information. I am not your mother, so it is not MY job to raise you.

Since you chose to twist my tail, is this how to be saved?

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. [Rom 10:9-10 NIV]

How about this, is this how to be saved?

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. [Eph 2:1-10 NIV]


And will following this advice from Peter lead one to being saved?

When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call." [Act 2:37-39 NIV]


As for me and my house, we believe all of these verses and many more. Now please stop telling lies about me.

Do you see Acts 2 .38 to gentiies? I believe this is to Israel as thats definitely not the order of salvation for the church age . The hearers ask " what must we do " not " what must we do to be saved " .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Christ alone saves ... no repentance, no faith, no belief, no perseverance. I do not think that you actually believe that or you would be a Particular Baptist (who believe that all of those other things come from God, too.) You likely believe that YOUR belief is importance and YOUR decision to repent is important and YOUR faith saves you if YOU persevere ... which is not "Christ alone".

Do you have to persevere?

 

[AustinC]

Of all the theological disagreements between Christians, Limited vs Unlimited Atonement always amused me the most. I came to believe the other four points of the "Doctrines of Grace" (TULIP) before I had ever heard of Calvin or Arminius ... just from reading scripture and finding the actual words disagreed with some of what I was being taught at a Church founded from the Wesleyan Holiness Movement (another term that I didn't know at the time).

My original view on atonement stopped at the realization that Christ had died for me and my sins (a point on which Scripture is very clear). The question of what other sins he might have died for and whether he had died for sins that would not ultimately be forgiven, never entered my mind.

Having invested time and effort studying the question of Atonement, the only thing that I am absolutely sure of is this: If someone were able to present absolutely flawless hermeneutics and exegesis and provide an unassailable scriptural and theological proof for either Limited Atonement or Unlimited Atonement (or any other view of Atonement) ... we would still have the cart pushing the horse down the street. God is under no obligation to shape His salvation plan based on our understanding and whose sis (and which sins) Jesus "became" as he was led to that cross is completely HIS BUSINESS and way above our pay grade.

So by all means, read, study, debate and enjoy Atonement ... but never for a moment think that our opinions really matter. The horse pulls the cart, the cart does not push the horse, and God saves whom he saves, how he saves them, irresepective of our opinions on how he should do it.

God Bless all.

Looks like you're flopping like a Crappie!

 

[AustinC]

Do you have to persevere?

Your very presence here means I have to persevere!

 

[Barry Johnson]

Your very presence here means I have to persevere!

See what you did there

 

[atpollard]

Do you see Acts 2 .38 to gentiies? I believe this is to Israel as thats definitely not the order of salvation for the church age . The hearers ask " what must we do " not " what must we do to be saved " .

The instructions from Peter result in receiving the Holy Spirit. Are you really of the opinion that unsaved people repent, are baptized and receive the Holy Spirit? Paul goes on to later explain in great detail that Jew or Gentile, all are saved by faith ... just like Abraham was.

You are making a distinction without a difference.

 

[atpollard]

Do you have to persevere?

“... he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.” [Phl 1:6 NIV]

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. [Rom 8:30 NIV]


Does Christ Alone save you?

 

[Barry Johnson]

“... he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.” [Phl 1:6 NIV]

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. [Rom 8:30 NIV]


Does Christ Alone save you?

Jesus alone ' saved ' me . I'm not now needing to persevere to ' be ' saved , that would be works salvation.I'm already secure.